Sena nerd recorded Wednesday because tomorrow and Friday are off work

>> Sarah : Greetings, nerds. This is Scene N Nerd nerd. I'm your host, Sarah Belmont. And with me, as always, is our mister producer, Will Polk. How are you doing tonight, will?

>> Will: Doing very well, Sarah How you doing this evening?

>> Sarah : I'm doing good. That's good.

>> Will: Yeah. New, different night recording Wednesday evening. Happy hump day.

>> Sarah : Yeah, I wanted to record because tomorrow and Friday, I'm off work, and it just feels good to, like, not have to, be like, oh, ah, man, I can't do that because I gotta record. I mean, I love recording with you on a weekly basis, but it just felt better.

>> Will: Yeah. No, no. Sometimes, as we were just talking and appreciating, you gotta do things for self care, make sure you take care of yourself. So, yeah, it's very important. Very important. So I'm glad, I'm glad you're getting a little bit of, a little bit downtime.

>> Sarah : M. Yeah, we're gonna talk about it just because I'm so curious of why you don't wanna talk about the Deadpool and Wolverine trailer. Because I kind of watched it. And when I say that, it means after you told me that you watched it, I randomly threw on kind of funny's reaction to it. Okay, so I heard a lot. I really wasn't paying attention, though, because I don't want to, I don't wanna have the trailer cloud my judgment of the movie.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : but I was curious because you sent me a message and said, they're trying too hard with all the f bombs. And so my ears were peaked. I'm like, I want to hear all of this cursing. And I will be honest because of that. I was like, I heard a little. I didn't hear too much, but maybe I watched the wrong version.

>> Will: No, no, it was more, it wasn't so. It was more of a commentary on, just the tone. More so than the number. I mean, the number of fucks. I mean, it wasn't so much that it was just more the tone of it. I mean, I don't, don't get me wrong. I liked the trailer. I enjoyed it. and I did, the other part I did say was I was part glad I watched it because it's the bit with the cocaine at the end. I mean, that I was laughing out loud, but, but then on the other hand, I was mad at myself for watching it because then I'm like, did I get all the funniest bits? Exactly.

>> Sarah : Exactly.

>> Will: So I'm like, you, know, do I go to the theater now? And it's sort of like, you know, I already saw that in a trailer. I mean, I'm sure there'll be tons of other things, but, you know, it's that eternal struggle that you and I, we've talked about many years on the podcast now, and especially marvel trailers in particular. do they give too much away? And, and so that's where, that's where I was sort of, like, before we started recording. And I posed a question to you. Did you watch it? One and two. Do you want to talk about it? Because, you know, if folks, if you're listening to us, if you're thinking you're going to get all the, like, you know, you know, Cassandra Nova and all those little details and that kind of stuff, we're not your podcast. Go listen to. Kind of go listen to somebody else. We're just like, we're folks who just like, like you who just love talking about these things and fun and know a little bit of the lore. Maybe not so much on other things, but, yeah, just put it out there.

>> Sarah : Yeah, I see. the tone that I observed aligns itself with the previous two movies, and we've. We have also talked about our feelings about those two movies. So, I, don't know. We'll see. Because there's sometimes when. Yeah, they really do put the funniest bits in the movies, in the trailers. And then you watch the movie and, sometimes you're like, I already saw that. And then sometimes you're like, you know, even with it in context, now it's even more fun.

>> Will: Yeah, exactly.

>> Sarah : And that's why never tell. Yeah, so far, it's just a matter of once you're in that theater, watching it on the big screen and there are other people around you, like, what will that environment and, and how will the, the movie, like, just speak for itself? so, yeah, I just. I just also. I mean, let's put the trailer aside. They continue to do such clever marketing. Like the whole, the whole new poster, that's a, that's a, an allusion to the, Logan poster. I'm just like, come on. You're just. I just like the posters. God. And we never talk about posters because I'm like, who cares? But this is just genius concepts.

>> Will: So.

>> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very, very cool. so on that note, another good reason why we moved it to tonight is because Shogun dropped its final episode, episode ten, a dream of a dream, last night. And we have both watched it. And, so now we get to wrap up this, our talk on Shogun season one. And the IMDb, summary says, for this episode, in the wake of a tragic death, Blackthorn finally considers the true nature of Toranaga's plan. will, what are your overall thoughts as such a shogun fanboy?

>> Will: Yes, I am a shogun fanboy. Overall thoughts? I found it to be a very satisfying finale. No surprise there.

>> Sarah : Yeah.

>> Will: But I will say in complete transparency here, as I was watching the episode, there were some moments where I was wondering where they were gonna go, and. And there were a few moments where I was feeling like some. Some. Some feelings of anticlimactic started to resonate in me. Yeah, but then. But then they brought it home, and I was like, yeah, this is how you close out a series. And I was very satisfied. But I, Yeah, but had the theme song on the loop.

>> Sarah : You would. You would. Yeah. Yeah. I. I feel about this episode the way I feel about this entire season of Shogun. I should like this show more than I actually do. At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with this. Is it anticlimactic? Absolutely. But does it make sense in context of the story that we've been given? Absolutely. Like. Like, I just. Everything makes sense to an extent. but at the same time, I think it really is kind of, like, to your point, there is, like. It's anticlimactic just because it's much more like a prologue as opposed to an actually actual conclusion. I feel, which. Which is fine. And I'm used to. I mean, go back to Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones has a lot of, like, their penultimate episodes are better than their finales, so. So I totally understand that. It's just. It's just that overall, this show, I. I should. I respect it. There is nothing wrong with it, but I'm also not in love with it.

>> Will: Yeah, that's fair.

>> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah. And. And I, think it's because of. I'm not in love with all of the characters. I'm in love with maybe a handful. so you. You brought up, some spots where you thought that, like, where you were really feeling that anti clap or where they're gonna go. Do you want to start with one of those?

>> Will: The very beginning with, with Blackthorn, lying there on his deathbed? because I was like. And, you know, and one thing about this episode, these episodes all, overall, is the titles have really done a good job of sort of capturing the spirit and the. And the theme of the episode very, very well. Sometimes, you know, the titles are just titles. People don't pay attention to them. But they really did a dream of a dream. This it was one of those things where I was just like, where are we gonna get, you know, when they talked about, you know, did you, whenever the kids grandkids asked like, did you get that from the savages? And I think made a comment about the debt, maybe chipping the sword or something like that. And, and then as the show started to progress, I was, I guess it kind of set me up wanting to see where that was coming from.

>> Will: And then, so of course, later, now, you know, as we get further in episode, as we'll talk later this evening, we, you know, we realized that we weren't looking at the future. There was actually black Thorn. Present day black thorn in the story was like imagining how things were going to turn out for himself. But, you know, but I thought they really did a good job of like, at least for me, it just created an expectation of what that at that time, as I was watching it real time, thought I was a flashback looking for that place. And then it never, it didn't come the way I thought it was going to. So that's, that's where it kind of where I was like, where are they going with this? But as I said, other things in the story really fleshed out that opening scene better. and really explained what was actually going on there. that after everything transpired, then with getting to Fiji and Blackthorn on the lake, and we see that America's crucifix is there with them, that I was like, ah, that's what they were doing there. And that's what I. And that's what, that's where I was like, yeah, I'm satisfied that, that, that I love that. That whole sequence there with, with him and Fuji.

>> Sarah : So they were, they were dumping her remains as well?

>> Will: well, yeah, I think. Well, the cross, remember?

>> Sarah : Yeah.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Because, you know, I'm confused because I know that they dumped her family. Yeah. Her son and husband's.

>> Will: Right. Yeah. They took, yeah. And then it took out black torrents. Took out Marika's cross.

>> Sarah : Right.

>> Will: And then Fuji was like, you should be the last, you know, you should hold her last. And he dropped it into the water.

>> Sarah : Okay. Okay. I don't know. I think I blinked when he dropped.

>> Will: Well, they dropped it. They showed, they show it like sinking into the, into the, into this. Into the ocean.

>> Sarah : I was like, oh, I don't have to read anymore, so let me look at my phone. What happens there? Like, this is another reason why I'm not sold on the shows, because I was never invested in Mariko Blackthorn, like, as a couple. So to me.

>> Will: Yeah, you were more Marico and, father of, you know.

>> Sarah : No, I don't. I don't. Misunderstand me. I found Bentaro to be a more fascinating character because of the choices that they made with him. Not necessarily. I wasn't saying I. Okay, I'm just joking with you.

>> Will: I'm just joking with you from throwaway.

>> Sarah : Line you had last week in a very harmful way. So just let me be clear. I was never, like, a fan of them being married or together. I just think that people villainized him more than they actually should have based on the things that were done. I mean. Anyways,

>> Will: Yeah, I know, I know. We. And if folks should go back and listen to our discussion on that, because we went for quite a bit on how, he was. How Sarah felt he was being overly dumped on when I pretty much dumped on him. Pretty hard, I guess.

>> Sarah : Yes, yes. Because will played right into what the writers want you to do. Yeah, no, no, no. I don't. I don't care what you want me to do. I don't understand.

>> Will: No, no, but. But I was thinking. But, too. I think it's a good.

This episode was a distraction for both the viewers and the characters themselves

This is a good segue to talk about miracle and, her. The deal that she made, with father Oliva, though, because she didn't.

>> Sarah : Just make that deal. Tornaga made it, too.

>> Will: Yeah. But she spared Blackthorn's life. that was.

>> Sarah : And Toranaga and Tornado.

>> Will: Both of them did. Yeah. with the ship and how. And they sold that very, very well, in my opinion. especially with the using with the christian raiders and seeing like that, you know, decapitated heads there on the. On the spikes and onjiro, the village. so, yeah, yeah, it was.

>> Sarah : For both the viewers and the characters themselves, it was a very good distraction. Distraction? Distraction. I don't know if it was a distraction so much as trying to get you to think one thing, when really the other going on.

>> Will: Even though with Mariko's death, the whole. The fallout from it. As far as yaba shige, his guilt. He had his lady Macbeth moment.

>> Sarah : He had a lot of weird moments. I mean, it was his guilt, insanity almost, him being hit. I mean, let's take it back to the first time or how we're introduced to him. He has an obsession with death.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah.

>> Sarah : And. And we see him throughout the season, kind of circle it. And then in this episode, witnessing Mariko sacrifice herself, knowing he's the cause of it. This is the one time where his, his character, kind of, I don't know, kind of like. Like, wasn't, as I think it got a little muddled on his character because I still don't quite understand how he ended up in there with them. I still don't know.

>> Will: He. So he let the. He let the.

>> Sarah : No, I understand that.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : But then, like, did he go back to his quarters? I mean.

>> Will: No. So as the fighting was progressing, whenever he let the ninjas in, they're not the, well, forerunners of the ninjas in, he, you know, as they were, he was trying to, like, play it. You know, his job is shuge. So, yeah, I let these people in, but then he started to, like, pretend like he was trying to defend Marco and black Thorn and all the rest of them, and they all ended up getting, you know, caught into. In that room. so that's how he ended up. He ended up in there because he was just being, as usual, duplicitous self.

>> Sarah : Yeah. M. Yeah, survivalist. That's the word. yeah. And so, and so he has some shell shock, I think, from all of that that leads to him just being more messy. And Ishido, ah, lets him go back and, But tornado, like, both of these guys, who he's been, like, trying to play both sides with, ends up disowning him. And then, Toranaga demands that he kills. Kills, himself. So commit stark picker. And, I just. I find it. I, like, as anticlimactic as it was, my favorite character on the show finally gets let in on the plan. And as one, Tori Naga tells two, and he, like, suddenly he's our avatar to understanding, like, we're not going to see the quote, unquote battle that didn't shed any blood. No, no, no. We're just going to hear about it. And, this story is going to conclude. so the overarching story of Toranaga's battle with Ishido comes to a head, and we get the whole plan unveiled to Yabushige, right before he's about to. Right before he, kills himself. And I just, like, that's. Again, why he stuck out to me is because even at the end, like, he finally gives us the answers we've been looking for. Yeah. Only to die, which he's wanted to.

>> Will: Yeah. And his. I mean, everything about Yamashige, he was true to himself to the end, even, like, even with his death plans. Like, feed me to the dogs.

>> Sarah : Yep. Feed me to the dogs. I want. They're hungry. And. I don't know. It's very interesting. and that's, again, why I have a lot of respect for the writing of this show is because the. The whole cultural, perspective and also individual perspective on life and death that's played throughout the entire season. And really, this whole episode, like. Like, it's much more philosophical about life and death, as we see, even Blackthorn attempt to commit sepperku this episode. but Toranaga denies him. And just because Blackthorn makes him laugh.

>> Will: Well, Blackthorn makes him laugh. Yeah. I mean, it's. I mean, sometimes it's not the grandest thing. It's just like, you know.

>> Sarah : And maybe he can help build a japanese navy. I don't know. I don't know. He's apparently picking on, up on japanese real quickly. So. So he. They don't need a translator no more.

>> Will: Well, yeah, but then. But of course, we don't need a formal translator, but we do learn that, muraje, you know, he didn't, you know, the spy that we called m, you know, Mexico, you know, he. We learn more about him as far as the fact that he, you know, he speaks Portuguese just like black foreign. And, and, you know, Tornado had dispatched him to be a. To be a spy, but he became so, embedded that he actually ended up adopting the faith, you know? So, but I really liked how they closed the loop on that character. I mean, that was, speaking of writing, I mean, that's another thing. I think they did a really solid job. And why I found this finale stuck the landing for me, even though, as I said earlier, there were some points where part, of the anti climax, too, was just, I mean, we know that tornado becomes the shogun, right? and but the point of the wells going with the writing is they really did tie up all the loose ends with, with these characters. I mean, I don't feel like. I don't feel like I'm, At least with this. This aspect of the story. I know where everything lands with these characters. Now, if they. Hypothetically, which probably won't happen, but if they wanted to do another season and show how, you know, so show the battle and how ito help Tornago's first few years of ashogunate is run, then, you know, they could do that. But, to me, that would, that would diminish what they've established here. If they did something like that for.

>> Sarah : The cash grab, why did Ocheba decide to, bail on Ishido?

>> Will: it was the meeting with Mirko. She. Cause she. You know, when it had that. The poem, that, moment in last week's episode, the seeds were planted there, whenever they had their. Their moment there in the garden. And then we saw it sort of play out after, I think, a shiba figured. I think there's several things. I think, one, she saw what Ashido was up to, which what, this basically, leading to. Leading the country to a pointless war, with Toranaga. one of the factors, too. I, think she saw that his fingerprints were all over. Miracles, death, as well. So I think between all that and then, you know, she's talking to her son, the future tycho. you know, she helps him. You know, they have that very poignant conversation, and she finishes out the poem. That miracle was. Was trying to tell her whenever, he was trying to write, when he was writing, when her son was writing that poetry. So I think all those factors, among others, and I'm sure the listeners will feel free to comment on our pages and stuff about what other motivations, but those are some of the ones that I think, at least top of head, that come to mind.

>> Sarah : Yeah, I don't buy it. There's something still. I understand what you're saying. and there has been seeds planted far earlier. I remember at the play, the Taika's, wife mentioned, she chose the wrong side, but at the same time, the Ochoba that we're introduced to, and more importantly, her hatred of Toranaga, they committed so hard with that as an introduction to this character that it just seemed weird to me. It seemed a bit off. And we talked last week about my feelings about that interaction between Ochoba and Mariko, where it didn't really seem completely in character for me, with how Ochoba responded. so that's probably also why her suddenly deciding to take Toranaga side didn't really align where I feel like they focused more in, the later half of the season, and rightfully so, on the motivations of Toronaga, Mariko, Blackthorn, a little bit of the abashige, and less on Ishido and Ochiba, where once you lose, like, that threat in that villainous, like, motivation, things get a bit muddy for me, of being like, okay.

>> Will: So, yeah, I disagree with that some. I mean, I think because, I mean.

>> Sarah : I know you do.

>> Will: Yeah, because. Well, and I miss. I'm gonna, where I disagree is they still focused on it with. Unless you're. Let me just ask you this for clarification. Are you saying that, you know, the things was that sort of resolved for you once he did all his shido, did all the scheming to build, you know, to get the five members of the regents to be able to impeach Toron aga, and then from that point forward, you're like,

>> Sarah : I don't know. I just. They didn't feel very much like a threat because marico already, like, I don't know. It just. Yeah, they didn't feel like a threat.

>> Will: Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's fine. I mean, yeah, I mean. I mean, I agree with you that the narrative shift did focus more to the tamerico, black Thorin, and tornado. I mean, there's no. There's no doubt that it did. I just didn't know if you had any other thoughts as far as.

>> Sarah : The threat lesson, other than the political game last episode.

>> Will: Oh, yeah, yeah.

>> Sarah : So. But they also. I don't know. It just, There wasn't enough time there where this. I feel like. I don't know if it's, like. I don't know if it's that they. I feel like they're much less of a threat. It's just that their motivations for their actions weren't clear for me.

>> Will: Okay.

>> Sarah : Like, from the. For the first half, it was very clear to me what the political moves were. And then once we understood why Ochoba was siding with Ichido, her decisions were clear to me. But the later half of the season, it's kind of like as soon as miracle entered. Entered the court, suddenly, they were stupid. They just. They didn't. I don't know, especially Ochoba, because she. She. Like, I get your point. She saw him leading the country to a, pointless war, but at the same time, that's the war she wanted. So I don't. I don't understand. Like, she helped him, like, fuel. This is, This wasn't an ishido. Only thing. He needed her in order for, like, this to really come to head. And then she gets cold feet. Like, I don't know. I just. They spent a lot of time in this episode focused on making sure we understood all of the good guys maneuvers and plots to secure victory. And again, this is all rightfully so. I find it very thin, what they did in terms of their quote unquote, villains. We hardly got any screen time with them, and then suddenly, next thing you know, we get a letter, and then that letter says this, and you're just like, okay, okay. But then again, at the beginning, we talked about how this episode is very much like a prologue and not a finale, like a spectacular finale. I mean, the Crimson sky, to Toranaga's point, that occurred last episode, that's not this episode. This episode is more of, like, the aftermath and people realizing, like, okay, now under this new rule, where is my place? And Blackthorn accepting that he's never going to leave Japan, in a way.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's. That's. And I think that's. And, I think that's why I like this vinyl so much, because it did kind of subvert, like, you know, because we did have all this build up. Like, it's going to be a big boy. We're also conditioned in a lot of ways to, like, in other shows and properties, like, we're going to have this big, massive third act bite, and, you know, and this is. This is going to happen. But here was really, like you said, I mean, and Tornado said himself, you know, the crimson sky was Marco, and, you know, she. And he sent a woman to do what an army couldn't do.

>> Sarah : Okay. Anything else you want to say about a dream? Of a dream?

>> Will: Yeah, just the, last. Last point. And one thing that we. I know we kicked about throughout the season, and just wanted to get your thoughts on it, especially with, Toranaga and Yabashige's, unveiling of the plans right there before his jabashige's demise. So do you think at the end of the day, Tornaga wanted to be the shogun or for personal gain, or. He was doing it for the good of the country. Did he want to shogunate? Because all throughout, he was like, I'm, You know, and we talked about this before. He said he was trying. His. His goal was to follow the Taika plan, which was, you know, sun comes of age, and then he takes over.

>> Sarah : But, yeah, I think he wanted to be shogun. M isn't there a line in this episode that Ishido or somebody says while they're in Osaka, that the earthquake. An earthquake occurred right before the taika was going to go to war with?

>> Will: Right, right. When the council was having their. Their discussions? yeah, they had the earthquake.

>> Sarah : Yeah. Just. I just also.

>> Will: I thought that was a bit on.

>> Sarah : The news, you know, you know, whether. Oh, I absolutely agree. Whether or not I just, This whole, like, for. It's okay. I just. The. I'm just going to say this. The absurdity that people would make a claim that, oh, he's just going to be the most powerful person in the country for the good of the country. I don't. One plus one does not equal two, okay? So somebody please explain to me. And also, everything he had to do, the lives he had to. To, like, he lost his best friend. Yeah, Mariko sacrificed herself. Like, honestly, maybe Toranaga's real villain here, because. Because if he did all of that just for the good of his country, then, like, what the fuck? I just. There was. He. There was so much personal loss. and it sounds like it was always headed to this point, that I just. I can't say. Yeah, wholeheartedly. He had no interest in ever becoming a shogun. No, no, he. He. He's a wall facer. Okay? That's. That's all I heard. The moment I learned about the term wall facer, I'm like, that's Toranaga. Okay? He's telling you what you want to hear, but at the end of the day, I don't think you can do that much strategic maneuvering without at least some personal interest in, like. Oh, and if I do this, then I end up here, politically and power wise.

>> Will: Well, yeah, I think that's a very. You can make good arguments both ways. and I think Tornado says it himself whenever. how does it feel to shape the wind to your will and stern? Tornado is like, only study it, and.

>> Sarah : I think that's not right there. That's not an. Like, that's not an evil thing, but.

>> Will: Honestly, I don't control it. I only study it. Yeah.

>> Sarah : So, like. Like, yeah, he. He knows that he can only do so much, but that doesn't mean he doesn't enjoy the power he wields. No, no.

>> Will: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think. I think it's a mixed bag. I mean, you can interpret it either way. I mean, I think, he. Maybe at the beginning, his. His. His end goal was to do it for the best of the country. But like you said, I mean, you don't do all that. And he didn't waste her death. because he does maneuver things and put things, you know, studies the situation to the place where things do have one big final conflict. And then, you know, Japan does enter into, like, 200 plus years of, like, peace. So. So, yeah, I mean, it's. It could be mixed motivations here, for sure.

>> Sarah : Yeah, yeah. I also think like that, that's fine. But to say, like, one or the other, an absolute no way in hell.

>> Will: Yeah, I agree.

>> Sarah : There was a huge amount of personal interest. It wasn't just that. And I think there's too many seeds that there were things brewing way before this show started. Yeah, like, tornado's been around for a while. So, yeah, we just watched the final chapter in a sense, so.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : All right, well, that concludes shogun, which we will probably talk about again, as it's probably going to end up on will's best of list at the end of this year.

>> Will: you damn right it will.

>> Sarah : and that leads us to start our journey with fallout, season one, episode one, the end. A humble recruit from a post aPOC apocalyptic organization is tasked with scouting the wasteland in search of pre war technology to preserve it, facing challenges and critiques along the way. we watched both episodes one and two. Okay, I'm gonna. I know we do this thing where we break down the episodes. I am so on the fence about this show. I just have to start. Like, I am on the fence to the point where I don't know how many times I picked up my phone while watching this thing. I got bored. Very bored. and I just, I don't. I did not care for these two episodes. Yeah. And I. I am going to watch the next two episodes, but I don't know. I have. I don't know if this show is for me. yeah.

>> Will: Yeah. So I. I like them. I like Shogun. Where, like, for you, where Shogun, I think about like, after I watched episode and this one, I watched it and I moved on. I mean, not in a bad way. It's just like, I see what, I did like about it. because I know there were, you know, whenever I first saw the trailer, I guess earlier this year, maybe late last year, whenever it was, the inevitable comparisons to the last of us, you know, came about and we talked about it too. you know, video game shows and that kind of stuff. but as I. Well, you know, as I was watching it, I. I got some, some of the boys vibes from it, to be honest. And that's where I'm feeling like I needed. I want to give it a chance because I feel like there is a lot of satire in the show.

>> Will: So. And that satire, ah, you know, in particular, just picking on, you know, the. Picking on the elements of the american dream, sort of like, and, and the satire of it and sort of the world that they built in this show you know and it's not a and from what I gather just hearing people talk about it it's not a you know like unlike the last of us which really adapted the game that for the most part that was there and it just translated to live action. Here this show is building on the previous six fallout games you know in that universe. And then telling a new story that could you know conceptually be you know the 7th video game. But instead of just doing it live action with with the vault 33 dwellers. So that that said I think those are some of the overall initial faults as far as some of the vibes I got from the show. And I'm like okay color me intrigued that I will. I want to come back before making a final judgment.

>> Sarah : Yeah. So in this episode we meet Lucy Lucy McLean who's one of the vault dwellers. and there is a trade with another vault. The trade goes south because they do get married but on the wedding night they also realize that they traded that vault would had previously been raided. And so these are raiders who are actually not only raiding their vault but were after Lucy's father and they are led by I'm trying to find her name. Mo Daver. Yeah yeah mo Daver.

>> Will: Mo Daver yeah yeah.

>> Sarah : Who clearly knows something about the McLean's as she leaves with after taking Lucy's father she mentions how much Lucy looks like her mom and she also has a line there's an exchange between her and Lucy's father where mo Daver says everyone knows who I am. Do they know who they are? Emphasis on they. And they're the result of life's tricky little choices. and so I think I think that I like that line because that does allow for some intrigue of like okay so there's obviously something going on there there's history clearly we're kind of interrupting a story and being told bits of information. so I like that. and I'm curious about it and I have some thoughts especially after episode two. But what did you think about this whole trade raid and then hostage exchange?

>> Will: So yeah so this whole like the whole vault concept. So you know of course we get with the way the series starts. you know we we start 200 years in the past from present day when we meet the vault dwellers. So it's like right before you know and you know so we get this like post it's like America that like on the divergent timeline that never really grew out of the fifties, even though it was like, I guess the timeline for this show is like, actually it's in the near future, like maybe 2070s or something like that. As far as when we first, you know, see the cowboy and his little daughter and stuff at the at the birthday party. And then of course all the bombs start dropping, which I bring that up in that when we fast to really get to the vaults themselves. And then, like you said, we were first interviewed to the vaults. We just sort of see these communities, very egalitarian in some regards, as far as it seems like the structure. And then also, very weird, like. Like dynamic too, because you're like, you're treat. You know, you got like these breeders and stuff. So I'm like, is this like some kind of eugenics thing?

>> Sarah : Right.

>> Will: You know, you know, especially given that the goals are to like, when the radiation levels are low enough, they, you know, they'll repopulate the surface. So there's. But then we see other things happening in this show where it's just like, wait a minute, there's these other, these other settlements and stuff clearly that are above ground. So, you know, to your point about that line, it seems that, something was going on with Lucy's father and mold over and all these other, factions and people in this world. that there is a history there. And I guess as the season progresses, we will learn more about that history and really just sort of seeing how this whole post apocalyptic society developed and how people. How humanity is managed over these few years. And you got these vault dwellers who have a pretty good life. They got the, it seems when compared to some of the other, you know, compared to the brotherhood that we saw with Maximus, you know, as the next character we're introduced to. And then of course, you know, we see what eventually happened to the cowboy, coming to ghoul. So, Yeah, so those, that's just sort of my sort of faults there with what's going on with that line in particular. And just the vaults themselves.

>> Sarah : Right, right, yeah. And the next character we are introduced to is Maximus, who's on the surface. and we're kind of introduced to our first surface society through Maxim Maximus. And they're. I don't really know what they're. They're the quote unquote police, but they also are a cult.

>> Will: Yeah, you can say the vault's a cult.

>> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if they're the police or is there just also, more well intentioned raiders? I'm not sure.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah. I wasn't clear about what they were either. I mean, they seem to be some type of protectors. Protectors of what? I don't know. And then, you know, and we get some further in the second episode. I know, I know. We're trying to keep them, you know, take them episode at a time, but, it does. They all. They do seem interrelated m in some. In some regards.

>> Sarah : Oh, yeah, they definitely are. And I think that's one of my issues with these, first two episodes is this first episode because of how you're first introduced to Lucy, you follow her story, and the next thing you know, it's like, oh, now we're going to switch to Maximus. And then by the end, we get the brief five minutes of the ghoul. And. And so you're like, okay, these. These are. This is our Scooby game. Next episode, Scooby Gang comes together.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : A lot of exposition, a lot of setup, and a lot of me just being like, okay, I'm waiting for the story to be.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : So I get its beginning.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : But I. This is not. This is just not the way I prefer series beginnings to. To occur. I totally understand what they're doing. It's not lost on me. It's just not my preference of how to start a story.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would. It was. I will say it. The first episode was hard for me to get through.

>> Sarah : Yeah.

>> Will: I mean, I, you know. Cause I was like, all right, first episode, all pilots are always tough. It had enough. Like I said earlier, it had enough there. It got me intrigued that I was like, okay, not how, you know, for a post apocalyptic show, it's like, okay, I've seen where everything's set up. The vault piece was interesting to me. Where it lost me was actually Maximus.

>> Sarah : I know, right? I completely agree with you. Where I was, I was on board with the vault.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : And then I kind of raised an eyebrow with a stupidly extended long wannabe James Gunn action. Play it. play a country song during it. I'm like, I've now seen this. I understand it's a very popular artistic choice right now, but enough is enough. Come on. We. This isn't anything original. I'm just gonna call it spade a spade. But then we get to Maximus and, oh, my God, Maximus. Can we kill him? Because he, so far in the episode and a half that he appears in, he is so boring. He is so boring. And I just don't like him. There's nothing and you know, Lucy's a bit. Bit annoying. Bit annoying. But I have a similar feeling about her that I did. Ah, as I did with Luffy at the beginning of one piece where I'm like, I don't know. I don't know if I can handle too much Luffy. But then you meet Maximus and you're like, oh, it can get worse.

>> Will: And that's the hard thing, too, is like, if you're introducing characters and you're trying, you know, it would have been better. Almost. Not that I'm like, strow, runner or whatever, but I almost feel like, honestly, have Lucy's story from one in episodes one and two play out and then in episode two introduce Maximus or something. I don't know, is this something just structurally, it just did not resonate with me. And I was just, like, checked out until I actually liked the Dane character better when within that sequence. And I wasn't really vest. I was really not really. I was there, but not, with it until, you know, she ended up getting this injured because of the, razors they put in her boot. And then. And then when they're interrogating Maximus and the one thing that did stick out and all of the whole sequence that sticks out with me, with him is he, whenever questioned by his superiors, he kind of like, no, I didn't do it. But, you know, I'm. Oh, you know, I kind of wish I did.

>> Sarah : Yeah. No, I think that the best part of that was the interrogation scene. Yeah, that. That was a really good part.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : but I just. I don't know. They. I agree with you. You could have allowed us to be in the. In the, in the vault for the full episode and maybe have a little bit of her on surface ground and then in the next episode, or maybe just like, what you do with the ghoul at the end of the episode where. Where we get. We. We knew Walter Goggins wasn't going to go anywhere. That's why when they first said, 200 years later, I'm like, okay, the math ain't math for me right now. I know. but then when they kind of explain how the radiation and he's become this other thing and, how that's all working and they dig him up and to send him on this mission, I think we just needed that. We needed ten minute. This is. This is Maximus. This is a brotherhood. And then, and then you're going to learn more later because having this dual story between, Lucy in the vault and Maximus and brotherhood, it just, it didn't, it didn't meld, it didn't mix well. and, and it just, it wasn't that interesting. the next episode, though, when you start to actually mix the pot up and the people actually start. Just. My one problem with this is, man, the convenience of how these people all end up in Philly. Is it just with Lucy, Maximus and the ghoul? No, no, no. We have to add in Willix, who is the target. In the second episode, the target that Maximus, and, and, Lord Titan are, are sent by the brotherhood to retrieve. As in the opening sequence of the target episode, we are shown that, Willix is a Willzig. Sorry, I keep saying Willix. Willzig, is a mad scientist of sorts. but he likes a dog. So more importantly, and I hope the dog is around for a while, cx 404 and we see them escape the lab with something. and they're off to Philly. And that's where, conveniently, everyone ends up.

>> Will: Yeah. So I will give them, you know, I guess it's eight episodes, so I will give them credit for not dragging it out.

>> Sarah : Thank the lord.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah. Block convenience for sure, but thank you for not dragging it out.

>> Sarah : I know. And then, so, because I've already started on this episode, I just want to go to the very end. What did you think when will Zig killed himself?

>> Will: Michael Emerson. Not there long enough.

>> Sarah : I know. I didn't really like, like, I don't know. He's definitely an actor who, when you see him, you're like, oh, I know. The character you're playing right now.

>> Will: I want. I wanted more Wilson. I mean, I was, I was like, damn it. The one thing that, like, got me intrigued about this show is gone.

>> Sarah : I know it is. And, and every time, like, like we were getting. Lucy was getting a lot of heat from everyone she encountered on surface. I mean, she's, she's clearly a vault dweller. They were all centered. Will Zig was the one person who did it, in a way, but also wasn't as patronizing to her.

>> Will: Exactly. Exactly.

>> Sarah : I mean, to an extent, you almost felt will zigzag should have been in a vault.

>> Will: Maybe it was maybe because he knew a lot of, I mean, because he, you know, he's like, I know who you are, Lucy. And, you know, and so he clearly, you know, to our, to what we were discussing earlier, there's a history here with all these characters.

>> Sarah : Okay, I have my. Thank you for bringing up that line. I was going to forget it. Here's my. My theory and what I'm going to put out there. And I know 200 years have passed, but I do remember in the opening sequence of the first episode, while they're on tv, while. While they show a brief clip of tv and they mentioned something about the president's family has gone into hiding. I think the McLean's are part of that family.

>> Will: I think you're spot on with that theory. That's. Yeah.

>> Sarah : You know what? I'm gonna go. I'm gonna make another call. Back to three body problem. I think they figured out how to freeze themselves.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, well.

>> Will: Yeah, well, they were. Yeah, yeah, well, they were, They either they froze themselves or like you said, I mean, this enough of these. Because, I mean, there is. And that's what I do like about this show is. And, they do show with Lucy and meeting the people in Philly. They are really getting into some of the class issues and structures and stuff. So, to your point, you know, whenever the. Whenever the great war happened, you know, there was a class of people like. Like. And I think you're right. I mean, I think that is probably why vault 33 is special compared to, say, vault 32 and some of the other ones, not knowing anything about the Lord. Again. Fair enough. You know, I will freely admit that, but.

>> Sarah : But I think vault 33 is special.

>> Will: Well, it seemed, you know, of. Well, when I say special, just meaning, like, it just seemed to be. It just seemed to be suburbia.

>> Sarah : Yeah, no, no, it definitely did.

>> Will: and it's on full display when Lucy's out, you know, interacting with people, you know, and to your, you know, and will zig. Definitely, you know, he wasn't patronizing for sure. And saying, look, I'm trying to help you out here, kid. You clearly you're not lighting a fire in the middle of the night in the wastelands.

>> Sarah : Yeah, yeah.

>> Will: And then, of course, her interactions with ma, jang and, Philly.

>> Sarah : Right? Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. I I just hope that she and the ghoul have some conversation. Oh, my other prediction. movier. that could be the cowboy's daughter.

>> Sarah : M just saying. Just saying.

>> Will: Well, you know, I don't know, it could be. That's a good. That's another. You know.

>> Sarah : You know, since all these characters are suddenly conveniently meaning, I think that there we've been. We've been introduced to a bunch of characters that are all going to conveniently be. Be. Be connected.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Sarah : And so. Oh, what did you think about Michael Rapaport? Being lord Titan tonight.

>> Will: I'm so glad you pointed that out, because I was like, I know him from somewhere, and I think that was his beautiful spot on Cassie.

>> Sarah : Oh, my God. The only reason why I couldn't, like, I've seen his work. I know he's in some classic movies, of course, but really, why he's on my radar right now is because I didn't realize this, but he's a huge fan of vanderpump rules and reality television on Bravo. Huge fan. So. So he, like, like, he does TikToks about it all. All of the stuff. so. So the moment they took off, I was just like, this makes sense. This makes sense. I just need him to say the word scandal, and then we have it a day. My God. My God. I thought that was great. Do you want to talk about the fight between the ghoul and Maximus that I probably spent most of my time walking around doing things during because it went on way too long?

>> Will: That was another, it was just funny, you know, it was just cartoony, that whole, that whole sequence. I mean, and I guess they got to do a better job of getting me on board with Maximus, because at this point, I I'm just. I'm just not there with him. I mean, he's the, I mean, if he's supposed to be like, I don't know what his role in all of this is. I mean, clearly, Lucy's the, you know, she's got her mission. Ghoul is clearly what he is. Maximus, I mean, you know, he may be short shrift of storytelling here, because he just seems to be, well, he's consistent in one way. I mean, he's cold, but, I mean, he, you know, like, with whenever Dane got her foot cut and he was cut off, and he was just like, I wish I didn't do it. But what you did and then how he treated Titus whenever, you know, he didn't give him the stimulant to help him get healed. I mean, he, you know, he's definitely got a cold blooded streak in him, and. And I know that keep that. It did flashback to, like, how these, you know, the armor warriors, rescued him from wherever he was when he was a little boy. So I'm wondering if he's just, like, he's reached this place. And we did see elements of this in the episode, both episodes, where he may be disillusioned, this organism with the brotherhood. And so, so when he.

>> Sarah : I mean, to understand more about Maximus, we have to understand the brotherhood yeah.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : And so they, they did some teases of flashbacks of how he became a part of the brotherhood. But we still don't really understand what the brotherhood is in terms of this, this world. So there's a lot there.

>> Will: Yeah. And I did do a little bit. I did listen to one video, just to help to get some context. I want to say the brotherhood was like, this is just a straight, straight backstory video that I watched. and I want to say that they mentioned the brotherhood maybe showed up in either fallout three or four. And I mean, I think they were like, I guess the quote unquote good guys. but so clearly there may be some like elements of it who are, who are not, not so good. So maybe that's why I was thinking maybe might be a little disillusioned with the brotherhood.

>> Sarah : Right. Right. I, you know, in terms of this fight, it dawned on me about halfway through why I'm probably not digging the. The Maximus brotherhood type lord tinnitus storyline. It is so video game.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : And I know we're watching a show based on a video game, but you brought it up before the comparison between this show and last of us. Last of us. You would get there were. I don't, I don't really think there were a time when you could know, say, oh, we were clearly watching a game based on a video game. I mean the, the suit of Lord Tinnitus itself is just so video game where you're just like, oh, and also bad CGI. My opinion about CGI. So, so I don't know, it just, it felt much more like they were so focused on being. Bringing this game and I, from what I understand, another thing to point out is, I think my brother told me he played fallout and fallout is. I forget exactly the term they use it. It's not the same type of video game that the last, of us is because last of us is a story. And then there's gameplay. there's gameplay and then there's these stories and these cutscenes, scenes while I, Oh, I think it's called an open player game where it's like, here's the world and now here's the game and maybe a little bit of story, especially because there are sequels. So you connect but not, it's not that much focused on an overarching story itself.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : and so I think I'm starting to feel that where, yeah, they did bring a world to life and they. We have some different perspectives on the world with the characters. But I'm just hoping we get our Scooby gang moment where they can all work together, because the ghoul needs Lucy, and the Lucy needs ghoul right now, because we really need somebody to, like, whip her into shape and. And Maximus, we just need answers. We need to understand, or else you gotta go. You gotta go give a. Give the suit to someone else. Or you know what? Let's just get the suit. Get rid of the suit altogether, because it's not that good. CGI.

>> Will: Yeah. And to you think I know you mentioned earlier about the dog, CX. 404. It looks like CX is going to be around because the, ghoul did treat, him from the wound that he. That he inflicted on him. Whatever.

>> Sarah : so, yeah, I hope Cx and the ghoul like, it looks like they're.

>> Will: Going to be the partner. The dog seems to be, thankful to the ghoul for bring it, for rescuing him, because at the end of the episode, they were. Yeah, they were together, so.

>> Sarah : Yeah. And then they're. They're all after. They're all off to see Madura. Madura. We gotta learn how to pronounce that name.

>> Will: I think I gotta. I gotta watch it again. I've only watched episodes once, one time, so I gotta get the pronunciations down.

>> Sarah : Moldeva Moldova. All right, well, on that note, will, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you?

>> Will: Yes, you can find me on Twitter, also known as xillpolk. W I l l m m P.

>> Sarah : O l K. You can find me there too, at SJ Belmont. Sj b e l m m o n t. Please follow our crew on Twitter at sena nerdfronest. On Facebook, false and Instagram and threads at scene underscore n nerd, and our website, ww dot cena nerdpodcast.com. But most importantly, rate, follow, and comment on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcast. Good night. Geek out. You're welcome.