>> Sarah : Greetings, nerds. This is Scene N Nerd. I'm your host, Sarah Belmont. And with me, as always, is our mister producer, Will Polk How are you  doing tonight, will?

>> Will: Doing very well, Sarah How you doing this evening?

>> Sarah : I'm doing good.

>> Will: That's good.

>> Sarah : I did my homework, and I, about an hour ago, I watched the spider Verse short film, the spider within.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah. What you think of it?

>> Sarah : I'm gonna be honest. and I like miles, and, so it was good to get something from, into the spider verse, spider verse world, and miles and everything. And I understand the concept. I love that it's with charity. I got bored about two minutes in, if I'm being completely honest. For some reason, I was just like, wow, this is dragging on. It felt longer than eight minutes for me. so I love that it works for some people, and some people really enjoyed this. And again, I think the message is great, and, the concept and why they did this in support of mental health. at the same time, I'm just going to be honest, and for whatever reason, I wasn't, like, overwhelmed by, what it was.

>> Will: Yeah, okay, well, that's fair.

>> Will: I mean, I, you know, I wasn't. I liked it. I really, I really felt that the message was, you know, it was truly, for lack of a better term, a PSA for, you know, for mental health awareness and, you know, seeking help for when you're feeling overwhelmed. And I thought a lot of the visuals and things that you, you know, were in it as far as when Miles was, you know, having a panic attack and everything, I mean, I thought it really, really did a, you know, a good job of, like, you know, really visualizing what, what he was feeling and all the pressures that he was, that he was having. So, for me, the short film worked very, very well. So, I mean, I wasn't expecting it to be like, you know, part three of the, of the trilogy or whatever, but it was just a nice, it was a short film and really had really, thought it was very, very well done. So.

>> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense. and, and I'm not putting it down. I think it's, it's, it is eight minutes long. To me, it felt longer. But, I think if you, it's worth checking out, especially if you have watched the two Spider Verse movies and have been following miles story. I think it's just a nice little appetizer, for, in the meantime, as we continue not to get the third movie, which was supposed to come out in March, but I told Will that there's no way in hell.

>> Will: Yeah, we should be talking about the third film right now instead of the short film, but, yeah, we'll get that. we'll get that at some point. So we didn't get a spider verse in March. It's just not the one everybody expected.

>> Sarah : No, no. man. And plus, besides, we just have too much going on.

Ochiba returns to Osaka in order to accelerate the regents campaign against Toranaga

Tonight we're going to talk about Shogun, episode six, ladies of the Willow world. and I believe this is taken from IMDb.

>> Will: Lady, ah.

>> Sarah : Ochiba returns to Osaka in order to accelerate the regents campaign against Toranaga. In Azure, Toranaga tests miracles, loyalty to his cause. So, will, essentially, there's two halves of this episode, one half about Mariko and one half about Ochiba. but let's start with Lady Ocheba, since she's kind of the new character who's entering the fold. What did you think about everything that was going on? And I'm going to emphasize that let's stick to also present day for the moment. But in present day Osaka, with Lady Ochiba's return, Lord Isheba, and, just the overall, the regents and what's the political things that are happening there.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: So just sticking to the present day, I thought that this really. This episode and focused, it's called Ladies of the Willow world, and it was just a true testament to, these are probably two of the most powerful women in Japan, actually, three, when you. When you consider the courtesan, lady, Kiku.

>> Will: Kiku, kiku.

>> Will: It really was that on display. I mean, it looked. Ushida was definitely, you know, she definitely returned to Osaka Castle with the power of being the one who bore the air for the kingdom. And so I just really looking at the present day, and then all the stories that were going on within the castle, with her influencing Ashido, as far as trying to get the regents to, adopt a fifth member so that they could finally impeach tornaga. Everything, all the political machinations that were going on really made for a very, you know, you know, you really recognize the force and that she is.

>> Will: And.

>> Will: And then, of course, as we learn more about why she is the way that she is, she was a very compelling character, and definitely whenever we, you know, when we saw from the end of last week's episode, wondering how things were going to unfold, it definitely did not disappoint.

>> Sarah : So, yeah, I agree with you to an extent. I still. I don't. I like, this character, I think she's an important character to have. she definitely has a motivation. That's interesting. But there are two things that I have problems with. One, it's still not really made clear to me how the mother, not the queen, not the person who was actually married to the previous emperor, but the mother of the heir, has all of this power suddenly, like, upon her return, to the point where it was mentioned several times in the episodes by the regents and the lords in Osaka that they were basically being held hostage by this one, they never quite explained to me, or at least I couldn't tell by what I was seeing and understanding about why she holds that power, over them and could do that. I mean, I understand the manipulation of Ishido, but even he felt like, even it seemed like he was being held hostage, so I just. I don't. Or maybe not. Or maybe that was the whole thing. Like, he was basically her puppet. So even though she was pushing him to move things along, he's the one who actually holds power. It wasn't clear to me.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: I mean, to me, it's very clear. I mean, Ashido is. He's just truly, he's not good at the political game. I mean, he thinks. He thinks he is, but he's just. He's just the pawn. And I think where she gets a lot of her power is the simple fact that the taiko had many Curtis Curtisans who were trying to sire him a male heir, and no one was able to do it. But she, as she said, she took, you know, she. What was it? She, by compelling fate, and she just kind of took the. Took the thing on hand and ripped his eyes out or something. I think I'm paraphrasing, but, I mean, she was the one that was able to keep the lineage going, and so she. But because of that, she has a very special, you know, very special place in this, being that she is the mother to the heir to the taiko.

>> Sarah : Yeah.

I would just like to understand more about why, culturally, that would be

I guess I would just like to understand more about why, culturally, that would be the case at this time. Well, in similar times and similar stories, that's never the case. So I just. I just. I just. Culturally, I want to understand that a little bit more. Like, I can see the importance of that position, and. And I. And I will be honest, I did not like the line about, well, I stared fate in the face and scratched his eyes out. I'm like, what. What are we talking about here? What kind of metaphor is this? Like, like, what do you mean? Like, I don't get it.

>> Will: Yeah, well, whatever, I guess. I mean, it was an arranged relationship, so.

>> Sarah : Well, yeah, it's. It's, an arranged.

>> Will: It's.

>> Sarah : She was a handmaid. If we're gonna go into handmaid's tale, like, she was just there to have sex with him so that she could produce an heir because everyone else so far has failed and they needed someone. And so I get why she's upset. I understand that. Like, because, because it basically, there were a lot of implications that they drugged her. They. But there. And I want to know, okay, so how much of it was actual rape? Because I think there was some part of it that was pretty much rape. And then on top of that, we get the flashbacks, which I knew right away, for some reason, that the. The girl who was playing with young Mariko in the flashback sequences was Lady Ocheba, and who was revealed at that time to also be the daughter of the, ruler at that time, who we know that from previous episodes, Mariko's father kills that ruler, which leads to devastation for her own family. So Lady Ochiba is. She remains behind after her father is killed, and then she has to bear the child for his successor. Horrible situation. Just disgusting, just gross and all of that. so like I said before, that's one of the reasons why I can appreciate her character, because all of the motivation is there for her doing what she's doing.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Then the question is. Well, and I'm, This is the one thing I can praise Lord Isheba about. He asks the question I've been wanting to know, why does she hate turnug? Like, like, people have to ask this question, right? And then she explains that she believes that he is the one who actually had the plan. He did not commit the act. She knows that. But he was the planner behind the series of events that led to her father's death. Okay, well, we will. I'll let you go, will, and, share your thoughts about that.

>> Will: well, I'm glad you, I'm glad you went.

Mariko thinks that tornado was behind the assassination of her father

You brought that up, because I think that also plays a role in why she does have some of, in addition to what we discussed as far as siren, the air bearing, the heir to the, to the throne, also the fact that her father was a very powerful, warlord. And also, you know, I think that also lends to her having, having some, you know, higher station, because. Because of her lineage. So with the assassination of her father and thinking that tornado was behind it, it definitely, this character is based off. And all these characters are based off real people and real events that happened in feudal Japan. And so, the person that her father's based off of was truly a very nasty, evil man. And many of the other feudal, feudal leaders were. Did want him gone, and so many of the prominent nobles wanted him gone. So, yeah, so it makes sense for her to figure out the field, to have this feeling that Toranaga was definitely behind this. even though it doesn't seem that Tornaga, ah, orchestrated the plan, he may just been a part of it and is very happy that this guy's gone, so that, you know, things. You know, that things can sort of materialize how they should. It reminds when I. Whenever I was watching this whole dynamic and stuff between Mariko and Ochiba, especially when they were younger, it definitely. I definitely was starting to. Was getting some house of the dragon vibes with Alicent and Renea, and Alicent's, like, role, as far as, you know, marrying Viserys. because it was. I did see some sort of similar parallels with their relationship and how their relationship ended up, like, falling to the wayside because of bigger. Bigger issues of state.

>> Sarah : I did not think about them at all during this episode for some reason. but I can see what you're getting at with those parallels. yeah.

Ochiba reveals that this is why she hates Tornanga

To go back to what you were saying about Toranaga, though, thank you for bringing that up, because that was going to be my point. I think it's interesting how in Osaka, Ochiba reveals that this is why she hates Tornanga. And all I'm thinking in my head is like, wait a second, let's rewind. Go back to the Toranaga scene with Mariko. Tornaga is clueless as to why you hate him. So if. If they're gonna say, when all is said and done, that no toranaga was behind it, then I'm just gonna be like, okay, okay, flaw.

>> Will: Because.

>> Sarah : Because he would have. And it's hard for me to say, oh, there's absolutely no way. Just because of how the whole conversation goes with Marigot, where he does talk about her father and why she was married off the way, not the way, but when she was, but actually both to who and when she was, because he needed to get her out of there before everything unraveled around them. So it was a protection clause.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Some. Some could also argue with the way he was talking to her, and, given his closeness with her father, that he definitely knew about the plan.

>> Will: Oh, yeah.

>> Sarah : But the actual orchestrator I don't know. And maybe when lady Ochobao says it, he's the only one she can kill at this point. You know, she's the only one she. That the Toronaga, like, she. For her to settle the score in her mind, he's got to go, because he. He knew about it, and he could have prevented it.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : So.

>> Will: So.

>> Sarah : And, you know, maybe. I mean, I wrote fan fiction in episode one about this, but maybe so long ago, he. She's also pissed because at one point, she really liked him.

>> Will: It's possible.

>> Sarah : Yeah. And so. And so, I guess to go back to that first episode, it now makes more sense about why she was sent away, because he knew about her despisement when she was. Because he sent her away and the heir remained in Osaka. So. So maybe that's why, even though they don't really explain it, in my opinion. But maybe that's why Lord Ishba wanted her to return to Osaka, because, well, if toranaga wants her gone, then she must be a value, for somebody who's against Toranaga, like an ally. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, type of deal. But you got to take in consideration, her dad was crazy. She's probably a bit crazy, too, so.

>> Will: Exactly, exactly. And. But also. And I guess that's the thing, too, that even though, you know. And I guess that was part of the reason why tornaga and other. Other noblemen and people wanted to, you know, wanted her father dead was because, you know, after that, it did lead to the tycho's reign. I mean, there was no more. No more war. during that. During that period.

>> Will: and so. And also, you know, the thing that really was, you know, was provided some clarity. And I know we were. We were wondering, like, you know, as far as miracle and.

>> Will: And.

>> Will: And the wedding and the timing and stuff, one other element that was. That did get filled in this week was that Marco's father wanted her to live so that she could get that revenge one day. so, you know, so everything. So it definitely, like, revenge on who the. Since honor demanded that the whole. Her family had to, like, kill themselves because of her father's treason. she wouldn't, you know, she would get her revenge on the people who, like, falsely accused her father of being. Being a treasonous person.

>> Sarah : But he was. He killed the lord. Like, he killed.

>> Will: Yeah, but, yes, but he killed the lord because of the, Sheba's father was just. He was a terrible. A terrible man, and because of because of that, he was, you know, it was, you know, causing a lot of conflict and stuff.

>> Sarah : So I understand all of that, but I just don't buy that she's gonna get revenge on the people who took, like, made her father kill themselves, because, like, she wanted. The way the culture is being explained to me, the noble thing to do would be to let her die. I mean, the person she could get revenge on would be her husband and killing Bontoro, because he keeps commanding that she lives. But I don't. I don't feel like she necessarily has anyone that she needs to get revenged against. It's more like she needs.

>> Will: Well, I mean, it's not necessarily this one person. I mean, there's probably a, you know, many enemies that they all had, because, again, these were all feuding, feuding clans in Japan at the time. So it's not. I don't think it's just one. Like, she's just not, you know, only, like, fighting against Ochiba's father. I mean, it's other. Probably other folks as well.

>> Sarah : Well, Ochiba's father is dead.

>> Will: Well, yeah, but, I mean, there are other enemies. You know, like, we saw the other four regents that are. That are present, that were. Brought war around, so.

>> Will: But that.

>> Sarah : See, there's also a time difference here. Like, a lot of people profited from the death of her father, including Toranaga.

>> Will: Yeah.

Why doesn't Mariko kill Turnaga? I don't see it

>> Sarah : and now we're talking about two different people. Okay, so a lot of people profited from the death of Mariko's father because he was, like, the sacrificial lamb of saying, like, well, somebody has to go down for this. And for whatever reason, which, fingers crossed, maybe we get some more flashbacks and, like, flashbacks and more of this is explained, but it was Miracle's father who drew the shortest straw and is like, okay, so you and your family must die. Okay, so in my mind, as we discuss this further, why doesn't Mariko kill Turnaga? Because, hey, hey, if Ochoba is right and it was all Toranaga's idea, technically, then that means that he manipulated her father to do his dirty work, and she and her father would be living like, her whole life would be completely different if it wasn't for Tornado.

>> Will: Yeah, but I don't see. And I guess that gets to our point.

>> Sarah : That's ever going to happen.

>> Will: But. Yes.

>> Will: No, no, but I. But I also. I think it also answers one of our questions in that, what we've discussed is Tornago probably wasn't the person that was the orchestrator of this plot.

>> Sarah : Yeah, but I don't. I have yet to.

>> Will: Because he doesn't want to be. He doesn't want to be Shogun. I mean, he's made it clear that he doesn't. You know, he just.

>> Sarah : Thank you for bringing this up.

This is another problem I had with this episode. I actually really like this episode

This is another problem I had with this episode. And before I continue, let me just say I actually really like this episode. It's one of the stronger episodes, in my opinion. However, there are, my favorite character, Toranaga, he said some stuff that isn't adding up to me. Like this whole, I don't want to be shogun. And suddenly I'm looking at him and I'm thinking to myself, then, what the heck are we watching? What are you doing? You don't want this.

>> Will: Then.

>> Sarah : Then why. Why is this going on?

>> Will: Well, because he, you know, he was loyal to the taika, the. And his goal, I think his ultimate goal. And even though, oh, Sheba doesn't see it, Toranaga, orchestra, you know, he just wants the. He wants her son to be able to take the throne, and that's his motivation.

>> Sarah : Well, see, that. That. That's wonderful, but I don't get then why no one else is supporting that.

>> Will: Well, because everybody else has. I mean, you know, we know Ishido definitely, he has his sights on things, and he, you know, and he can't, like, you know, he can't strike down, oh, Sheba and the sun, because if he does, then that will create. Will openly create war. So, you know, so he's. You know, he's doing all these, like, you know, he's trying to do this impeachment so that, You know, that will. That will remove, you know, you can say I got cover by. By the. By the council of regents that, you know, that that tornado should be. Should be gone.

>> Will: And.

>> Will: And I think Oshiba, is fault, you know, is. Is supportive of that because, I mean, she blames Tornado for the death of her father.

>> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I, We'll see. We'll see what more motivations, or lack of motivations reveal itself.

I still question the power that's coming from Lady Ochebe

it's just, this is, again, why yabo Shige is my favorite character. Because he's the one who. I know exactly a his motivation.

>> Sarah : You can't trust him. Love that. Love that transparency. Can't trust you. I get it. I get it. I understand. Very confusing.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: Deborah Shige definitely, like, you know, he knows at some point he's gonna. He's gonna die on a battlefield somewhere. Cause even this episode, he was like, I need to draw up a will.

>> Sarah : Right? He had, he was barely in this episode, but he was the only one. I love how he talks to Ami. He's like, what? Who cares about what? The barbarian is being rewarded right now. We are about to enter a war that we can't win. And we gotta our lives, like, like, we got to figure out a way out of this. Like, that survivalist mentality. I can respect that. which omni just is there complaining because, Blackthorn takes over the cannon regimen. and then later on in the episode, he also is offered the opportunity to hook up with Omni's, courtesy Kiku, lady Kiku. so what did you think about the miracle of it all?

>> Will: Yeah, her story this week was just equally very compelling. I mean, because she and Blackthorn had, she's now she's like, she's only treating him as her, as his interpreter, nothing more. But, you know, everybody, everybody there at the camp knows that something. But going on between them and to see how, you know, tornago, you know, sees it, you know, there was her, her husband sees it and hide that, I guess. What was the Eightfold? yeah, I mean, that we're seeing that at play here, as things progress in the series. So she really, again, like I said, you know, Shiba maybe is the powerful woman in Japan, but Marika is like, right, but right there, not far behind because of where, where she is positioned with all these things going on.

>> Sarah : We do have two episodes of a different show to talk about, so I don't know how much I want to argue with you.

>> Sarah : so, so I'm. So I'll just say if Mariko was really good with the whole practice of the Eightfold fence, then why the heck does everybody know that she's loved and probably has had sex with Blackthorn? So I'm going to say no.

>> Will: I'm not saying she's good at it.

>> Sarah : Yeah, I'm just saying she's messy.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: I'm just saying that she thinks she's good at it. I mean, she's good at, she's playing that game, but everybody else sees it.

>> Sarah : then, then I guess then I just don't understand why you would say she's so powerful. Because if she's playing a game but she's sloppy at it, she's not doing that great. Well, she, she, I don't, I don't say that she's as powerful as you're saying she is. I think she is a good ally for Tornado and someone who I think because he hates his son right now, like, he wishes, like that was her daughter or his daughter. so I understand all that, but I don't think she's that powerful. But then again, rewind, everyone. I didn't think that. I still question the power that's coming from Lady Ochebe. I think Lady Ochebe just has a lot of confidence.

>> Will: Well, I think you will.

>> Will: And you fleshed out what I meant by power. I think that her power is in that she.

>> Will: The.

>> Will: Her what? Her role with Toranaga. And also, I guess, the interface.

>> Sarah : She even gets scolded in this episode because she gets scolded and punished because she gets sent to go and basically watch Blackthorn have sex with Lady Cuckoo, whole thing. And then she acts very unprofessional and mistranslates. He offered to go with them. and she must stay behind, which I just would like to say my favorite scene in this entire episode, it's actually the saying of the Lord's prayer in both Japanese and English simultaneously.

>> Will: Yeah, she was praying. Yeah, she was, I think it was actually Latin. That's why he recognized it, because she's. She was saying it because she's Catholic, so.

>> Sarah : Oh, she was saying it in Latin.

>> Will: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

>> Will: And that's why he recognized it.

>> Sarah : Not here.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Well. Well, either way, too.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : But it was a powerful scene to frame that shot.

>> Will: Yeah.

The two most powerful scenes in this episode were between Lady Kiku and Mariko

>> Sarah : and just how the execution was so good, and then to have the translation, or miss, whatever you want to call it, between Lady Kiku and, Mariko at the end. Great scene. The actor who plays Blackthorn did an amazing job with his eyes in that, whole sequence, because he was very captivated and all of his emotions was written on his face, so hats off to them. so despite me, like, questioning power of these women, this overall episode is very strong because of those two scenes and a few others as well. and it's just good to see multiple characters start to get fleshed out, even though I wish some motivations would be explained a little bit more.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, I agree with you, though, as far as the two most powerful scenes, because, I mean, I think that when. Whenever they were saying the Lord's prayer, I mean, it just. It just showed that intimacy. I mean, you know, that when he heard, when she was. When she was praying, and, again, reinforces that. And then the. When they were in the willow, world at the brothel, and, the three of them in the room. And just even. Not only the eyes, but also, like, whenever he was going to go get pillowed and, you know, he reaches out with his hand and, like, they brush hands too in that scene that was just between the words and everything about those two scenes were just really, really powerful this week.

>> Sarah : Right. And I like how, the first scene is actually intimacy through pain, because they saying that prayer, amidst all of the losses that had occurred with the earthquake, and then at the end, it's, pain through almost pleasure and seduction and all of that. so it's interesting to see both sides of intimacy and affection display. So we'll continue next week with Shogun, episode seven.

We will start covering three body problems on our new show

That brings us to our new show that we will start covering three body problems. I am so sorry to all of the listeners who have been listening to us for a few weeks. And anytime I mention this, because I swear to God will never corrected me, I'm pretty sure I referred to it as three bodies, one problem.

>> Will: I just.

>> Sarah : Yeah, it is free body problem. We watched the first two episodes. Do we understand why it's called three body one problem or three body problem? No, not a clue, but yeah.

The first episode takes place during China's cultural revolution in 1966

So let us start with episode one. Countdown. Unsettling events put a group of brilliant friends on an. On edge as a mystery unravels with origins tracing back to China during the cultural revolution. Will, what did you think about this first episode?

>> Will: Oh, I. So this first episode really started out the way that it did in 1966 and the height of the cultural revolution in China. I was not expecting that at all.

>> Sarah : no. God, no.

>> Will: Yeah. And so it really set the stage, this first episode, overall, this really sort of set the stage for the series, introducing us all to the characters, the production values, the sound, everything about it, with storytelling was really, really cool. I know from what I understand, this scene, actually, that where things started out in the book written by, Lee sho, it was actually in the middle, but whenever they translated it to English, they actually flipped the order. but it really set the tone as far as, like, all the things that proceeded afterwards with, you know, with science, with religion, with, we see ye Wenjie in the. In the crowd, seeing her father get executed and how the mother, like, you know, just stood there and was the one who flipped and turned him in. So, you know, right at the outset, we get the three body problem where there's equal, you know, where with these three people and the events are tugging against one another, not even getting into the fact that this is about, you know, what the.

>> Will: What we learned at the end of.

>> Will: The episode as far as what was the mission here? But, you know, set those things up. And then, of course, we do fast forward to our, you know, so we get the one body and we get the second body with the folks in, you know, in London and.

>> Sarah : Oh, so you're going to try to explain to me what the title means.

>> Will: Well, I mean.

>> Sarah : I mean, is that what we're doing here?

>> Will: No, no, no.

>> Will: I mean, I just. I just. I just, It dawned on me whenever I was watching, you know, this is such a vague title. It just kind of dawned on me, like, what?

>> Will: You know, so who are the three bodies?

>> Will: Well, at least in the first episode, at least to me, it seems to be change, huh?

>> Sarah : no, continue. I'm just gonna let you finish your thoughts.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, no, that's cool.

>> Will: no, but like I said, I just really set things up really, really well.

The second episode really gets into, like, the three other three bodies

So what are your thoughts on. I don't want to ramble now.

>> Sarah : I want to know what.

>> Will: Who.

>> Sarah : I want to understand who you're. Like you said something dawned on you.

>> Will: So.

>> Sarah : Okay, so Wenjie is the first body. Who's the second body?

>> Will: Well, her family is. And, you know, and Vera. I mean, you know that. So that's one unit.

>> Will: The.

>> Will: The. The Oxford five is the second one, and then Clarence is the third. At least as far as the people.

>> Sarah : Sorry, I feel like I'm doing, like, math in my head. It ain't adding up to three. But.

>> Will: No, no, not three literal, like three. No, not literally three people. Like three units.

>> Sarah : And that's why it's body instead of bodies.

>> Will: Well, I mean the three. Well, the second. The second episode really gets into, like, the three other three bodies.

>> Sarah : The celestial bodies confused as what counts as a body and what doesn't. this is an excellent way to. For us to be talking about this show, because this show, honestly, everyone, you just have to watch it. You have to sit down. You have to watch it. I, was surprised by how engaged I was throughout the entire two episodes. I think I fast forward through one scene because I don't really care about watching two characters have sex. but overall, I was really pleased.

Every time I had a question, my question was answered

so, yeah, so, as Will was saying, we meet Wenjie, e one j Wenji in, the past at the very beginning. And then fast forward to the present day, where her daughter kills herself, like, right off the bat. and that's Vera's death. Which leads us to the Oxford five. I'm just, as I'm talking, I'm trying to figure out a way to both review and explain what's going on. but all I really want to say is that overall, with this episode and the next episode, every time I had a thought of a question or an inkling of, wait a second, this isn't adding up. This logically isn't making any sense. What is going on? I felt as though the writers could hear me, and instantly, the next seed, my question was answered, and not in a way that I was expecting. so, for example, I want to say it's in the first episode that we meet. Augie meets Angelique. I think that's what her name is. At least that's what IMDb tells me she is. and it's because Augie is seeing these visions, and then suddenly she ends up taking a smoke and can't, can't light our cigarette. And Angelique is there, and I'm like, where the heck did you come from? But, yeah, yeah, so. So that's my thoughts.

Wenji is in both present day and past in the first episode

See, now I'm rambling. I don't know how to talk about the show. I really don't.

>> Will: Well, I was trying. Yeah, it's okay. I was trying to set it up. Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, it's a lot going. I mean, there's, there's a really. I think it's like, I think the easiest way to do it is, like, really talk about the three different units.

>> Sarah : Because, like, I was surprised at this episode how a, we started in China in 19, in the 1960s, but then we go to present day, and I'm thinking, oh, we're gonna be here for a while. But over the course of that first episode, we go back to Wenjie's story.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : and we find her at a work camp, where she's working, and then she gets kind of screwed over again. but then the military realize that she can be of use to them, and they send her to the top of the hill, where she. At the end of the episode, we learn about what this army research facility is really doing, and it's called the Red coast project, which she, after a demonstration that kills a lot of birds, a lot of birds die. it was basically sequence from the birds that occurred. she points out, like, oh, this isn't, you guys aren't building a weapon. You're actually building a way to communicate with aliens. which, like, overall, I was surprised by just how much the past mystery, it complements what's going on in present day.

>> Will: So.

>> Sarah : Well, like, it's not a parallel. It's not taking you out. It doesn't like these stories. Yes, Wenji is in both present day and past. but you're learning information. And also they don't repeat themselves necessarily or to the point where you're just like, man, why? We get it. We understand both timelines are. You're being informed as characters are being informed. Because really, when Jay has some explaining to do in present day, she got some explaining to do in M present day. So. And we'll get to the second episode and where she leaves things. But so while all of that is playing out in past, in present day we meet the Oxford five, which you were saying was our body number two.

Vera's death kicks off our introduction to the Oxford five

So what about. So Vera. Vera's death kicks off our introduction to the Oxford five, to Saul, Auggie, Jin and a few others.

>> Sarah : So what did you take about these five college nerd friend group people?

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: So I overall, we really saw Auggie and Jen. Really the word of three that stood out for me. Will and ah. Jack. Jack. I was annoyed by Jack, to be honest. I just. I don't know. Was there something about. I mean, I know, I know that was probably the intent of him to be an annoying character. But You know, I think it just really did a good job of just sort of setting up the dynamic between the two, between the group friend group. And we, you know, we, you know, as they're. When they're at Vera's front funeral, we You know, we learn thing, you know, what that Jen and will for example, you know, did have a prior relationship, Augie and Saul. I think it seems that they're on again, off again. But you know, they are really trying to, they're trying to figure out what's going on. Because Saul, you know, the night that Vera commits suicide, I mean she, you know, they realize that the physics something's going. You know, the data is just like showing nonsense. And they're trying to figure out this, this mystery as far as what's going on and why all the while the particle accelerators around the planet are having, having difficulty.

>> Sarah : So that's what Saul is trying to figure out.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Will: That's what Saul's trying to figure out. Augie, you know, she starts to, you know, she starts to see the, the countdown clock and you know, and then, and then she bumps into the mysterious person there on the steps. And you know, and, and you know, and when Clarence, like, you know, sees, you know, whenever he sees later in the episode, we see where, you know, when he talks to Augie about this. He.

>> Will: He.

>> Will: Second episode.

>> Sarah : That was the second episode.

>> Will: Yeah, second.

>> Sarah : But what you're getting at is so, like, there's a reason why those three out of the five of them stuck out, because they really focused on Saul's connection, or not connection, but the fact that Saul was working on the same project, the same science project that Vera did, and Vera ends up killing herself. Jin, she really isn't. Nothing too odd is happening. She's kind of the normal friend for both Saul and Augie. I guess that's a way to articulate her storyline actually comes in the second episode, when Wenjie gifts her something from Vera and she starts to question, why did Vera call herself? Which, you know what? Why aren't they all questioning this? Augie is suffering from visions. The countdown clock, which you mentioned. And so I also really appreciate how there are a lot of characters, and this is a big, complicated mystery, yet each character, like, it's not like the Scooby gang, right? Not. They all have their own lives. They all also are experiencing very different things and, are folded into this overall story in very different ways, so it doesn't get boring, and you don't feel as though you're watching the same story be told five times. So I kind of. I really like how only one of them had the countdown clock. Now, I don't know what that means. I mean, I don't know why. Also, obviously, Vera at one point, had the countdown clock to go on, but why didn't Saul, you know, Why didn't Jin. So it's interesting that, I hope we come to understand more about what exactly was it about Augie's research that led to her being the one of the five that had that.

The first episode focuses on an investigator looking into a mysterious death

And to go into Clarence, who I'm assuming is your third body, because Will's on body count right now. he. He. We are introduced at the very beginning in present day, as an investigator who's looking into a researcher who pulled out his own eyes and. And used blood to write out a countdown. Basically, the countdown clock made him go crazy.

>> Will: Yep.

>> Sarah : Which we were starting to see Auggie experience as well. So. So. So we understand.

>> Sarah : And he is really the one in the present day besides Wenjie. Wenjie. who has been looking into investigating why there are so many researchers who, out of nowhere, inexplicably are killing themselves. and so he's trying to really understand this bigger mystery. and so we get all of that in the first episode.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah.

>> Sarah : The second episode is called, Red coast. And it's described as Auggie's countdown jeopardizes her nanotech work. Jin becomes engrossed in another otherworldly VR game. Yi Wenjie follows through on a radical idea. so will, what was your take on the gin VR game? storyline that also ends up including Jack as well.

>> Will: at this point, I'm just trying to figure out like how this is, how does it fit all into this larger story.

Will: I'm wondering if Mike Evans is behind this VR game

and you know, one character, we didn't talk much, we didn't get it, we didn't get into much, with the first episode. But it was a very pivotal character that that Lee Wendy met in Mongolia was Mike Evans.

>> Will: you know, and while she was in the labor camp, the journalist that she met gave her a copy of the book silent, spring. which is, which is a real book. that really was written in the sixties and various was very pivotal in like telling how pesticides like DDT and other things were poisoned on the planet. So, you know, so. But you know, so of course, whenever Evans was there in Mongolia and it was, he was trying to like stop all the deforestation and stuff, you know, fast forward to present day. Now he's like big industrialist and anti vaxxer, anti, you know, anti science, et cetera, you know, very wealthy industrialist.

>> Will: And so I'm wondering if his company is possibly behind this, this VR game because I mean, yes, we learned at the end of the first episode, they're looking, you know, the, the Chinese were looking for, aliens with the transmissions and stuff. But it does. I don't know. I can't see how, at least in this juncture in the story, how the aliens would know to like drop a VR game like this. So, So I'm wondering if he's behind it or if it's something, you know, for something or something completely unrelated. I just don't really know. But, but the things that were going on in that universe really seemed to be. It wasn't clear to me because like, at first I thought the gate, the VR thing was attuned to like the individual user. Like it was programmed, you know, for, for a person especially. Like the way things sort of unfolded between. That was difference with Jack and Jen.

>> Sarah : Right.

>> Will: But then I was like, but that doesn't make sense because Vera's mom gave her, you know, gave Jen Vera's old gaming set so that, you know, cycles. Like, I threw that theory out the window. And then Jack later gets his on his own, like, you know, VR set. So, ah, like I said, yeah, I.

>> Sarah : Think you're right in the sense of what you were initially thinking. Because even though Vera's, mom, Wenjay gave her, gave Jin, Vera's, the first person you encounter in the game didn't kill her. So that was taken as, ah, some sort of invitation because Jack, when he puts it on, immediately gets killed. And I have to say, I disagree with Will. I love Jack partially because the actor who plays him, Samuel Tarly, Game of Thrones. So I'm just saying my loyalty was Jack. He, he. He can't use that same one.

>> Will: And.

>> Sarah : And then when he gets his own, there are a few subtle changes in the game itself. And it does feel more like, okay, now he's invited to play, I think. Like, I did not think about that. But I think you're spot on with Mike, Evans possibly being behind the game in conjunction with Wenjie, which my biggest thing about present day Wenjie, and I hope, like, as the season progresses, we understand more about, is she's, in my opinion, she's in, clear cahoots with the aliens.

>> Will: Okay.

>> Sarah : She'S in cahoots, but her daughter dies.

>> Will: Yeah. So what. What.

>> Sarah : What's up with that? Well, what happened there also, who's her dad? Her daughter's father. Just saying.

>> Will: Yeah, that was my thing, too. I was like, I wonder if, you know, because she did hook up, you know, she did have pillowed with the, with the journalists there in the camp. So the time would probably be about right.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Yeah. So. So I just. I see, I don't. I don't think it was a journalist. I don't. I don't think. I think it might be the engineer who, like, they have more of an antagonistic relationship with. And then my theory is also Mike Evans. yeah, yeah, I have that theory going on. So. But. But in why it's very clear, is because this episode spoiler ends with her sending a communication because they finally figure out how they can use the sun to amplify the message, and she sends a communication because Mike interferes. I'm pretty sure it's Mike who's interfering with the call. that because they pick up a single and Wenjie translates it and says, do not answer. I'm, a pacifist, if you answer, we will come and conquer your world. Like, I'm not delusional. That was from Mike, right? Like, it's just, it's weird to me how. How he, he can, like, I don't know, the fact that they say he's a pacifist and they just had that encounter and then the single is going out. So in response, she sends out a, another message that says, come, we cannot save ourselves, and I will help you conquer this world. So the lady chose her ally. She's like, fuck y'all.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah. and that goes back to what I was, you know, trying to say at the beginning with the politics of it all. Because she, you know, she sees this world as, you know, she. The politics, you know, she runs into the young, the lady who, like, beats her father to death in this. In the square, you know, in the labor camp.

>> Will: And, and, you know, so you have all that and, and, you know, she's got this book and, you know, what she's been through with, with her own ordeal, getting sentenced, sentence to the labor camp and all that kind of stuff. I mean, it, whenever she said that, when she, you know, when they had, they showed her paws, her finger, and I was just like, she's going to do it because she's got all the motivations in the world to, like, come fuck this place up.

>> Sarah : But, but it's interesting because I don't feel like they are fucking it up. What, what's going on in present day is more of a warning. It's like, you shall not advance, like, to the point where you could come and take over our world. So it's almost like this alliance of, okay, you don't conquer us, but you also help us prevent from getting that knowledge and that advancement in technology to even become a potential threat. because with Augie, that's what we really learned. She's given a simple choice. Either. Either let the countdown clock get to zero, which you won't, like, what would happen, right? or give up, stop your research. And, and we see it where she, she ends up stopping the research clock, disappears.

After watching the first two episodes, there's a huge mystery surrounding this show

And then Clarence just so happens to be, like, sitting outside the street, which, was one thing where I was like, okay, how did he know? But then again, we also see him spying on practically everybody this episode. Oh, I guess. But I don't know. so. And he starts to fill her in on potentially what really is going on or his full investigation. so it's interesting how it's not even. It doesn't feel like they want to conquer, it's more of, you shall not become a threat.

>> Sarah : and. And I think that's probably because of some allies that they have, like a Mike Evans and, like, a, e one j. So. But we shall. We shall learn more. I mean, we're just. This is crazy. We're just getting started. And what m. I really love. I can't emphasize this enough about this show. And having watched these first two episodes, there's a huge ass mystery. But I feel like I'm given. I've been given a ton of information.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah.

>> Sarah : But not to where, like, oh, well, it's so obvious. It's like, well, they're hinting, but nothing's for certain. Like, in the. In the VR game, towards the end, one of the last VR sequences that are actually pretty cool because it allows them to give us really cheesy, low budget graphics. But it makes sense. So cheesy. but there's a scene towards the end where jin ends. it's right before she finishes the first round, and she kind of fails. But they allow her to proceed, with trying to save the next civilization. because she succeeds by proving that, What does she prove, will?

>> Will: Let's see. In the first one, she proves that, you know, because the first one, they were using chance and religion to, like.

>> Sarah : Get the superiority of science over mythic. Mythic mysticism.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Mythicism.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : And, at one point, I think the emperor shouts and says, science on what?

>> Will: On.

>> Sarah : On which world? And right there, I was like, yeah, the aliens are so behind this game because. And I go back to what Saul was saying in the first episode, and what was said a few times by, I think, all of Oxford five. This doesn't. Isn't making sense based on our laws of physics, but those laws of physics can be applied in a different world and make complete sense. So it's. It's really interesting. So it's almost like, okay, if we take that piece of information, why is Winjay allowed to make friends with the aliens? Well, maybe they try to apply their laws of physics, and even though they're advanced some of their stuff, their technology doesn't work here because we have different laws of physics.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Oh, yeah.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Very interesting.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah.

>> Will: I mean, you're right. I mean, there's just. So. There was so much to digest in these first two episodes, setting the table for what we'll. We'll get in the remaining six. But also,

>> Will: But.

>> Will: But also just questions that it poses.

J. M. Thomas: It's a dense show. Honestly, I don't feel given too much information

And, ah, you know, and we didn't even get into, like, you know, with whatever, you know, we had the universe blinking there at the end of episode one with Auggie and Saul sitting there. Yesterday, at Cambridge, I guess whenever.

>> Sarah : She was in the courtyard, we were at university.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Will: But, yeah, but then, of course, you know, the next episode, you know, to your point, like, there was no, like, you know, the universe blinked and, you know, you see, you're seeing its BBC, like, news story about, you know, the thing happening. But then all the satellites didn't pick it up, right.

>> Will: So.

>> Will: Did it really? So, you know, did it? I guess it happened. But, but there's no, like, proof beyond people's observations that it did. So, I mean, it just really, you know, and then, and then I, think even the Tatiana, I think her name, the, you know, she shows up with Augie, but then she also later shows up, you know, at Clarence whenever he's in the cemetery, just randomly bumps into, randomly, you know, whenever he's, you know, leaving the cupcake for his, for his deceased wife. And, you know, so these, all these, you know, these, these encounters that are, that are happening. And, you know, and she, you know, I think in the first episode.

>> Sarah : Sorry, but why do you think Tatiana chose to, encounter, have that encounter with Clarence? Because base my read, that's the first time he's ever seen her.

>> Will: M. Yeah.

>> Will: I don't know. I mean, I mean, I guess, I mean, she, she clearly is like, because, you know, he, you know, whenever Auggie, you know, since he is surveilling everyone, he, Augie is sitting there, you know, whenever they see the CCTV.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Yeah. Like, he doesn't see her in that.

>> Will: Yeah, but he knows that she exists. Well, well, he knows something happened, but he believes Auggie.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Yeah.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Will: So I guess, you, know, I don't know if she's like, maybe one of the aliens or something else where she just, you know, because, you know, maybe she's, like, the watcher or something, or observer. I mean, I never read the book, so I don't, you know, so I don't know how this is going to play out at all.

>> Sarah : So, which, which I just was curious if you had some sort of theory going on about why that interaction occurred, because it was very different. It was also very different interaction than hers with Auggie for a multitude of reasons. but I thought I was like, okay, so potentially that could be a sign that his investigation is actually starting to scratch the surface of what's really going on. and he might start to pose a threat in a different way that is very different from the scientists, who are suffering from the countdown clock. but, but, yeah, I, you know, it's a lot. It's a dense show, but I can't, I just am going to say it again. Honestly, I don't feel like we were given too much information at the same time. It's just, it's just a very well written show where you feel like there's a lot, but it doesn't feel like, oh, wow, I have to sit with this and really, really figure out, and I have to rewatch it. I'm like, no, no, no. You get just enough information to feel as though you're following, but you're not given too much information to feel like you're too far ahead of what's going on. Because, hey, I feel like we're about as in the know as Auggie is at this point. Point, maybe Jen Saul has no idea what's going on. Neither does Will. And arguably Jack.

>> Will: Jack Jax is having fun. You know, his little view. When he got his. But he finally got his VR headset, he was and is able to play it. He's like, okay, yeah, but it's funny when everybody was in there, too, because, you know, so when he saw Sir Thomas more, he was, he was thinking he was gonna get sliced down again. And, you know, he kept, he was, you know, beating up the, beating them up, so.

>> Sarah : Yeah, definitely.

>> Will: Yeah.

Please follow our crew on Twitter at seenanerdfrendas

>> Sarah : All right, well, on that note, Will, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you.

>> Will: Well, x, formally known as Twitter. Sorry, I can't even talk anymore. But, Will, M Willmpolk.

>> Sarah : And you can final follow me there, too, at SJ Melmond sjblmt. Please follow our crew on Twitter at seenanerdfrendas on Facebook, follows on Instagram and threads at seen underscore n underscore Nerd, and visit our website, www.sceneanerdpodcast.com. But most importantly, rate, follow, and comment on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcast. Good night. Geek out. You're welcome.