Sarah : Greetings, nerds. This is Scene N nerd. I'm your host, Sarah Belmont. And with me, as always, is our mister producer, will polk. How are you doing tonight, will?

Will: Doing very well, sir. How are you doing this evening? Looking forward to talking, some shogun and three body problem. I've been getting a lot of people asking me about these, about this stuff. that they knew. They knew we like talking about these shows on our podcast.

Sarah : No, no, that's cool. I'm glad people are not only enjoying the shows themselves, but also enjoying our discussions about them. and we will certainly get to both shogun and, three body problem in a few minutes.

The Joker two trailer is coming next week on April 9

we first have some news to talk about. Starting off, Juliet Gardner is cast as a silver surfer in the fantastic four.

Will: Yep.

Sarah : Great. Cool. and the Joker two trailer is coming next week on April 9, and it's confirmed to be a rated r movie. So we will be probably talking about that trailer when it comes out next week.

Will: Yeah, yeah.

Andre from v tragically died in a motorcycle accident over the weekend

Sarah : And then, the sad news to bring up at the start of our show, but this tends to happen every now and then, is chance. Pardone. Andre from v tragically died in a motorcycle accident over the weekend. And, thoughts and prayers go out to him, his family, and loved ones, awake this tragedy and, like, needless to say, season two of Gen V is delayed indefinitely. So.

Will: Yeah, yeah, very, very sad thing about chance. And, you know, and he was en route to Toronto to start. they were going to start table reads for season two of Gen v. And, yeah, obviously, this tragedy completely overshadows anything as far as when they go back to. Back to work and stuff. And definitely faults and prayers out to his family and friends and the cast and all this loss.

Sarah : Yeah, I think it's always difficult in this situation because, like, somebody died and passed away, but you don't know that person, but they are in a project that you really love and support. And so, selfishly, my mind first went to, oh, man, that means season two. And it's so unfortunate. and then it's also the whole theory spiral of, well, what are they going to do? How will this change the story? What. What will the producers decide? Do you do a recast? Do you not? It's just. It's all up in the air at this point.

Will: Yeah. Yeah.

Will: Cause, I mean, it wasn't like he was just a bit player. I mean, he had a very integral part of. Of the show, and so. Yeah, you don't. I don't envy the hard decision that the creative team's gonna have to make here with. With what to do moving forward, right?

Sarah : Definitely.

We apologize for the butchering of names on this show. It happens. Um, it happens. So all these people who listen to us talk

and so that brings us to, shogun, episode seven. A stick of time outplayed, by new alliances in Ahsoka, Terangaga is faced to carve out a new deal with a long lost family member. So all these people who listen to us talk about a show and who tell you, do you immediately apologize for the butchering of names? I always. I listen to other people talk about this show. I watch the show, and yet every time I'm sitting here starting this conversation, the moment I get to one of the names, I suddenly start to question everything. and we haven't even got into Yabo Shige. Okay.

Will: Hey, you nailed it.

Will: You nailed it.

Sarah : I know, I know. But it's still. It's still like.

Will: Yeah, I know. I feel that way too. Yeah. Sometimes it's like, don't feel bad. It happens. And we apologize in advance for our western tongues. it happens.

Sarah : It does, it does.

This episode foreshadowed many of the major plot points in previous episodes

and sake. He's the half brother, right?

Will: Correct, correct, correct.

Sarah : He's the younger half brother.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : what did you think about his character in this episode?

Will: Wow.

Will: Well, this whole episode, as I know with previous, episodes, these titles really do a good job of foreshadowing many of the major plot points in it. As far as the character, he was very, very interesting as far as.

Will: Yeah.

Will: Thinking about our discussion with episode six and the Taiko and Lady Ochiba and the whole courtesan structure and how that really, colored my, like, watching of this episode because, you know. Yes. he is Tornago's half brother, younger brother. And when I was thinking of our conversation about Lady Oshiba, why she. Why the taiko ended up, why her son has this station, you know, it's because he was. She was a successful person to bear an heir. And. And so in Toronto's family, you know, clearly, you know, his mother definitely was, you know, a higher courtesan than in this concubine, then his half brother here in this episode, which, you know, not only the age difference that you have here, but also just the power, the. Yes, he's. He is also a lord, but because of where things fall, his. His rank is a little bit lower and station, you know, he got the. I guess he got the. The province that basically is just over. All he does is just overlook the water. He doesn't really have any, like, major things going on. So it, was really cool, you know, hearing that, set up as far as their relationship. And we already knew that was they had. They hadn't really weren't close and.

Will: And.

Will: And to how things unfold in this episode. You know, it was a fun episode to watch. There's a lot, you know, all the action and stuff, especially given how things at the end of last week with the whole crimson sky thinking it's going to be, we're going to have the conflict and stuff. And really, all that pretty much didn't really happen until action wise and really until the end of the episode. So, those are some of my initial thoughts about him as a character.

Sarah : So I'm confused. Did I miss something? Did they explain in the episode that both of them come from courtesans?

Will: This, is something I picked up from, the official podcast.

Sarah : Okay. Okay. Okay. I was. I was just sitting here. Like, I did not understand that at all.

Will: Yeah, no, no. But. But it did. Well, as I noted before, as I was watching it, I was thinking, like, you know, yes, they're both lords, but why is tornado like, you know, you know, there were things at. When they first meet there in the woods and, you know, and. And sake, like, talks about the lack of action that he's seeing in his fiefdom versus what tornaga is dealing with, with things going on, there in Edo and Izu, where, yabashige has, land. I just started thinking about all the ranks in our discussion last week. And then, like I said, as I was listening to the. The, official podcast, and they were talking about, the family dynamic and all, how that just really helped us reinforce my gut feelings and confirmed why the power structure is set up the way that it is within the family.

Will: Right. But also.

Will: Yeah, yeah, right.

Sarah : Okay.

Will: Yeah.

Will: And also color some things that we'll get to in a bit as far as, like, what was going on at the dinner before. Before the big. Before the big reveal there, the Lando Calrissian moment.

Sarah : Well, I don't want to, like, delay that. You always do this. You're like, we're gonna get to that.

I want to hear your thoughts on this week's Shogun 2 episode

Will: I want to hear your. I want to hear your thoughts, your initial thoughts on the episode before we go there.

Sarah : This episode is fine. I didn't think anything really stood out to me. This isn't. This. It's fine. I just, I'm still trying to articulate what I didn't like about this episode. and I listened. I didn't listen to the official podcast. I listened to Roka's podcast, and, his partner on that podcast that after show, is a book reader, and apparently this episode strays the most from the book. And, And he hated this episode.

Will: Well, yeah, you know, honestly, I've stopped listening to. I've stopped listening to them, just because I wanted to just sort of have just formulate my own opinions and stuff, not being a book reader. And also, you know, I think the. What I like about the official podcast, not to get into, like, let's talk about the episode. Not the podcast. About the podcast. But, they, just keep the counter just straight and just fill in the historical gaps and give some context for things that are transpiring to show. And also the official webpage for the show does that. A good job of that as well. So we recommend that to folks if you are. If you're looking for context or things to help help you, like, figure out some of the dynamics and stuff going on. The, Shogun companion website also has some really good things to help frame some of these things that are going on in the show.

Sarah : Right. So, yeah, so he didn't like this episode, and, he was articulating why and me not being a book reader, I found it very interesting because I'm like, I didn't read the books, so I didn't realize that none of this happened. But I walked away from the episode being like, oh, my God. Like, we're still stuck in the same situ. Like, we're. There was lack of progression overall in this episode for me. And, I think book readers approach this episode and just are mad about the use of Blackthorn. Me, a person who's never liked Blackthorn, I. I can't say it's because he. Of the use of him. I just, like, this is just classic storytelling. It's like, okay, we're building up to a big fight, and it looks like everything's going in favor of our hero, our main, like, tornaga. But now we have to basically take away his army. Like, put. Make sure his back is up, against the wall as we head into the third and final act. Like, you like, it's just. It was much more like, okay, I know he's going to get out of this. I don't know how he's going to get out of this. But I also just was like, cool, cool, cool. This. This feels like a filler. It feels like a filler.

Will: I completely. Yeah, this is gonna be fun tonight. Cause I completely disagree. I don't think this, but I think there was. There. I will. I will agree with you that as far as, like, no progression, I would agree with Mariko and Blackthorn. Things did seem kind of stagnant. They.

Sarah : See, I thought, one of the most interesting scenes in the episode.

Will: So, because that scene wasn't about.

Sarah : Them, it was about Bentaro. But everybody hates Bentaro for some reason. Because I just want to say, like, we got into a deep discussion about Bentaro and why he continues to not allow Mariko her one wish. And I think everyone should revisit that discussion based off of the scene in this episode where, again, he is faced with this situation where he wants to kill Blackthorn. Taranaga is like, I want both of these people to be alive, so I'm going to use your wife against you. And, he said, if Blackthorn dies, so does Mariko, because they are both a part of this affair that you are alluding to. And then Taro does not give in. He wants to, but he doesn't. And I think that is so interesting.

Will: Yeah, it is.

Will: It is.

Will: yeah, I mean, that those. That's definitely, definitely. I'm glad you brought that scene up. Cause it's definitely one that did stand out to me in, the episode. And, yeah, there was. You know, so when I say stagnation as far as them, I mean, it's more just like. It was just like, reinforced our discussion before and reinforced, like, the status quo of Black Thorn, the triangle there. as far as him wanting to kill Black Thorn, Tornado is forbidding it, and Mariko wants to end things, but Toranaga is not allowing it. So that's what I meant by it just felt like it was. That, to me, was where things did feel status quo. But other parts of the episode, I felt did progress things quite a bit.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Yeah, you can go on because I honestly am curious about, what parts in particular?

Will: Well, I mean. Well, since we did.

Toronaga needs help with his army after two regents resign

Since I did bring up the dinner, I mean, I think the dinner with, the,

Will: As I.

Will: As I joke, the Lando Calrissian moment, because, you know, the tornado goes to his half brother, like, Han Solo goes to bespin looking for, looking for refuge from the circumstances that they're under. And in this case, Toranaga. His army's decimated. He needs help to do this crimson, crimson sky plan. And so he goes to his brother, and of course, his brother, unbeknownst to Toronaga, sees now that there's, like, two vacancies on the. On the council of regents, due to tornadoes, you know, resigning. And then, of course, the other regent getting killed in last week's episode.

Will: you know, sake, like, sees the seize just a moment to. To basically one up his half brother and gains a foothold on the. On the council, gets a scene on the council and. And carry out. Carries out the mission of getting this impeachment done. So, you know, so even though it seemed like things were kind of hitting a. Hitting a wall and tornado is always figuring out ways out of things, he. This is that moment where it was just like, oh, instead of tornado always being one step of a. First of, What's going on? This was the first time, I think I felt in this series where he really doesn't know. He's not one step ahead of everybody else as far as right.

Sarah : I mean, that's fair. I think that was the whole intention of this episode. I mean, again, like I said before, it's about the purpose is to make sure that the viewers believe that there is no way out of this. The back is up against the wall, everything. Like, all the plans, plan a, b, and c are a no go. So it makes sense. I mean, black thorn's gonna do something that's gonna help lead to victory, whatever. so I guess I just. I understand what you're saying. I just feel like his. His army. I keep having to remind myself when the earthquake happened, I feel like it's been four episodes and maybe it's been three episodes, but I'm just like, what is time right now? How long have we been here?

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Yeah. So it just. It felt more like, okay, we're. You're. You're still trying to figure out your way out of this situation, because he. He, like, the. Going to the half brother was a last ditch effort, so he kind of didn't want to do that because he kind of knew. So there's a part of me that. I mean, I think Gia said it, or Jin from the Willow world said it, even to Toron Aga and implied it. Like, he invited his brother here, knowing their relationship, knowing what's going on with the council. He's too smart to not think about that being the outcome. So it just. I don't know. I. I don't buy that. Everything completely took him by surprise, so.

Will: Well, and maybe it didn't take him by surprise, but maybe. But he did seem.

I think this episode was a filler, but it progressed significantly

I'm glad you brought up Jim, because I wanted to talk about that conversation next. it did seem at this point, and he was kind of resigned to his fate after sake did pull the power play there and at the dinner and, you know, handed him the impeachment papers and also the execution work for, nagato. Yeah.

Sarah : But we've seen him resign to his fate in earlier episodes before they even left Osaka. Like, he's like, yeah, I'm just going to chill here. You all are going to leave. And then he snuck his way out.

Will: Yeah, but see, this time he didn't sneak his way out.

Sarah : He's just like, okay, we don't know that yet. Will we see, like, we have not watched the next episode. We don't know. What I'm saying, though, is like, yeah, he seemed more resigned, but I think it's all for show. I'm not buying it. I'm not not buying it fully because the man has proven, like, done the stoicness before and yet still had a plan b up his, up his sleeve. And, and, and he still, at the end of the day, Tornado still knows Blackthorn and his cannons are the Joker cards up his sleeve. Yeah, that, like, crimson sky or not, they, they still, he still has some pieces, to move around this board. So I just, I guess it just to me, when I say there was a lack of movement, I understand how the episode connects from the previous one to this one and where the characters are and the purpose of this episode. I just feel like it was kind of like a filler where I'm just like, okay, well, now we have to get here where all hope is lost so that we can uprise and get victory.

Will: Yeah, see, I think fillers. I see your point. I think fillers and, ah, maybe it's just because when I hear filler, I just take that as such an, as a negative connotation with, with an episode or something, else. I mean, it's not like thinking back to our arrivers days where we had like the Flash filler where it's just like just a junk episode where there's like a bottle show where they're just trying to get through. I don't, I don't feel like this. This was, this was not, to me, at least in my definition of a filler, I didn't feel like. I don't think it was a filler episode. I mean, I think it progressed things significantly. Even foreshadowing in some respect to getting back to are cop with Jen and Tornaga. I'm glad you mentioned that because they, you're right. I mean, Tornado and even Jen are both long term thinkers. I mean, with Jen, with her proposal to him, with wanting to set up a district in Edo to, you know, and, you know, it is foreshadowing that that does lead to the. To the geishas down the line. I mean, because her corsons are the forerunners of that. ito basically is the precursor to Tokyo. so I see that that's where I was. Just, like, there's things going that, are happening here that are moving the story forward. And even Tornaga does that whenever he's preparing for whatever eventuality is going to come his way, you know, he makes sure he sets aside the land for her and all that kind of stuff. So things, to me, it was like things were progressing, right?

Sarah : So I guess so, I mean, historically, I'm just going to move on to the.

Did Jin know about Jinn's plan and will she receive a punishment next episode

To the final point about the willow world, because I thought it was strange. Well, I don't know how to explain this point, but. So Tornaga writes Jinn into her will, but this is before his son decides to try to kill his uncle in the Willow world. and so then the question is, did Jin know about this plan and will she receive a punishment in the next episode?

Will: I don't think so.

Will: No.

Will: I was gonna say, I think the courtesan now is now Kuki knew. I think she knew it was one down. But I don't. I don't think, I don't think. I mean, the only thing Jen made m. I mean, I guess to your point, Jen might have known something was going down because she did adjust her fee for, Lady Kiku down so that she could have that conversation with Toronto. So that's where the whole stick of time comes from, is.

Sarah : Yeah.

Will: Yeah.

Will: So maybe that to the. To your point, I mean, maybe she, you know, she. From their conversation, maybe she was like. And they both have done this, like, even with Kiku. Like, I think she said things to ami, and to. Or maybe Gia said things to Ami in the past, too, to sort of put plant seeds in people's minds about stuff. So maybe. Yeah, maybe that there is. I could give you that.

Will: Right?

Sarah : Yeah, I guess I'm not sure what you're. What you're. I'm, like, glad that you're agreeing with me, but at the same time, I'm like, I don't know if we're actually agreeing about the same thing.

Will: Well, no, I agree with you that she may have known what was going on. I just, But I think, I think fundamentally, we both are. I think we're at odds in that, whether or not. And what I was saying to you was, I don't feel that this was a filler episode.

Will: No, no.

Sarah : I know. We're back there.

Will: Yes, Sarah. I know.

Sarah : Use the word filler again. My God. I get it. Okay. Okay. Since this is not a filler episode, I retract my statement. Good lord. Talk about.

Are people questioning if Nagadaru is still alive? I've seen some speculation

Because I have, like, I just wanted to talk about the end, the middle. So, anything else about this episode?

Sarah : I'm losing. I'm losing track here about where we're going.

Will: No, it's not. I mean. I mean, I think we hit most of the major points.

Will: in a roundabout way. I mean, other than, do you think that, Nagadaru is dead? Or do you think he. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah : Was that. Was that, like, did. Are people questioning if he's still alive?

Will: I've seen some stuff out there. Yeah, I've seen some. Yeah, I've seen some stuff out there. But yeah, I think he sees a goner.

Sarah : We actually witnessed him dying. This was no bun taro.

Will: Okay.

Will: Maybe that's why people are like, maybe he's still. Maybe there's a chance.

Sarah : Oh, you guys are not playing the same rules anymore. okay, are you sure that there's nothing else? Because you really enjoyed this episode. So I just want to make sure you get all of your points out there.

Will: I mean. I mean, I guess as far as yabushige, I mean, he had. He's still the, mvp of the show when he has these moments. Especially, like, with black boring and stuff this week. But, you know, and also, you know, he still. The disrespect the poor guy has. I mean, Tornado, his half brother, like, is asking for Izu, and they're like, oh, yeah, you can have it just keeps getting shit on.

Sarah : Well, he. He is, Is a rat of some sort. So, yeah, makes sense.

Will: But, No, no, like I said, I think. Yeah, I think this is definitely, you know, I know sometimes we'll have weeks where one, of us is. Feels an episode better than the other. And I think, this is definitely one of those weeks.

Sarah : Yeah. I mean, I always enjoy talking, through those points. And sometimes you convince me, but you, so far, you have not convinced me of anything.

Will: Yeah.

Will: wasn't trying to.

Sarah : No, I think you were. I think you always are. but hey, maybe. Maybe you swayed some of our listeners who might have started on the beginning, on my side, on the beginning. But, No, this is still a good show. I'm not saying it's a bad show. It's just, at the end of the day, this episode was nowhere near one of my favorites. I think one of my problems is that I think in the first few episodes, there was, infighting happening, and then there was also the larger picture about the world at the time in Spain and all of these other countries. And I really thought that was fascinating. But since leaving Osaka, we've gotten very little of the Spanish, and their role in all of this politicking. So. So that kind of lost some steam there for me. But,

Will: Yeah, no, yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. We haven't seen the Portuguese much, and I think maybe that's. Maybe some people. Why, as you were noting, With folks feeling like black thorn maybe getting sideline or whatever, that. That bigger picture as far as it's getting so insular, I guess, is, what sounds like what you're saying. And. And the larger. How this plays out in the larger world is. Is. Definitely. Has receded some over the last few episodes.

Sarah : Right. Right. I. And. But at the same time, I understand why. Ah, like, it's not. Not making sense. It just. They're not telling the stories the way I would want them to in a way.

Sarah : Or the way that really intrigues me.

Will: So.

Episode three of The Walking Dead answered many questions from the first two episodes

Sarah : So on that note, we move to episode three of, three. Body problem, destroyer of worlds. Obsessed with their virtual reality quest, Jin and Jack raced to solve a complex riddle by. But advancing to the next level brings harrowing consequences. Will, what did you think about this episode?

Will: Actually, I want you to go first this time.

Sarah : So a few things about this episode, and, I'm sorry for the stream of consciousness that is about to occur, but when we're talking a show like this, I don't know. I don't know. So I found it interesting to watch. I'm so glad that these two episodes we watched back to back.

Will: I agree.

Sarah : they answered a lot. A lot of questions from the first two episodes. Almost too many questions, in my opinion. So, basically, this episode is mainly about the game, which will was correct that it was what's, his face. Evans is behind the game. we learned about that. Not a lot of flashbacks in these two episodes. Just FYI. Not a lot of flashbacks. especially in this episode. I don't think there's a single flashback in this episode. so we learned that Evans is behind the game. We learn that this, killed me. I felt so bad for you, because if anybody listened to us talk about the first two episodes, will had a theory about why this was called three body problem. And, and in this episode, it was explained that it's called three body problem because in the game, there's a three body problem, which is basically where three bodies, it's. You can't predict what's going to happen in space when there are three bodies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like a three star system, which, which it's. Until it's, it's. Then, I think by the end of it, after they, they figured that out, Jin figures that out. And then they advanced to level four. And then they meet, creepy girl. so they meet her, and then she explains that the game portrays what actually is happening to the aliens who, Wenji in China all those years ago, basically told them to come. And here's the coordinates to our earth, because their earth, their planet, what are the aliens called? The Saiti.

Will: Santi.

Sarah : Santi are in on a planet that is essentially being played out in this game. And so they make this communication with Wenjie, who invites them, to our planet. Now, here's my thing. And I'm sure I probably, I don't think I went too deep. I don't think I went at all into the next episode. But in the next episode, it is explained that it'll take them 400 years to get here. And at that point, I immediately thought to myself, I'm like, why is this so urgent that we figure this stuff out? We got 400 years. What's with. I have a lot of questions about why scientists are dying and all this, but like I said, they answered some, almost too many questions for me. But at the same time, there's still, like, some where it's like, wait, what's happening?

This episode really explained the science behind the Santee game

so will, on that note, what did you think about the whole explanation about the game, the santee, and, them basically killing your least favorite character?

Will: So as far as. Yeah, so if you, if you like the game, aspect of the first two episodes, this episode was definitely for you. and I did like the games and, but also, but also I think it did the right thing by ending the levels, you know, because I was beginning to wonder, like, you know, are we going to get a whole season of, like, you know, we're going to keep leveling up and leveling up and leveling up. And in this episode, they're like, whenever we do learn that, we get to level four. And basically that was like your invitation to whatever the group of Santee, cult followers are. You know, I don't think they've given him a name yet. but, so we had resolution. So I was like, okay, fair enough. no more. You know, we. We learned, you know, they get confirmation to our theory last week that Evans was behind the game. And, you know, as far as the three body problem thing, what I was. Well, I was going to get into the science about that last week, and I think I touched on it some, which, they did. But they did really flesh it out and explain it. you know, I know they mentioned it in episode two last week with the sun, Jupiter and Earth, using Jupiter as an, you know, using the sun as an antenna to, like, magnify the signal that Wenjie, you know, ended up doing. but then this week, they, you know, they really got into it, you know, got into the whole classic physics, newtonian physics of what, you know, the scientific explanation of what it is. But also, you know, in the context of the game, as far as when Jen and Jack, you know, really learned what the true purpose of the game was, which was, you know, and, you know, we've gotten sprinkles of it where they were, you know, where they were really exploring, you know, what's stronger? Is it mysticism, religion? Or is science, you know, as far as these challenges within the game, and then once they figure out what the true motivations of the game was and the purpose for it, I agree with you that it was really good to watch three and four together because they definitely complemented each other. watching these two as a unit.

Sarah : Right, right. I still. Because I still.

I mean, the winjay's daughter, Vera, dies, and

I mean, the winjay's daughter, Vera, dies, and, she kills herself. It's very clear. She kills herself. and she talks about God. Now, we're still not sure, because here's what I'm trying to get at.

Will: Yeah. Okay.

Sarah : Hear me out. When Jay gives the headset to Jin, and he tells her, Vera has been obsessed with this game. I don't know where it came from. Blah, blah, blah, lie, lie, lie.

Will: Right.

Sarah : And. And just invites her. Now, we also know that Jack can't wear that headset because he wasn't invited. Yeah, I don't think Vera was playing that game.

Will: I agree. Especially when we saw whenever Auggie tried the game, and she got the same, you know, same results that Jack did.

Sarah : Right, right.

Will: It just.

Sarah : It doesn't. It. I think Jack couldn't play the game until he actually received one. And I keep thinking about the way Vera died. I m don't, It seems like with the game, because they're being recruited, they're being sussed out through the game to join this culture. And. And, And then if. If they fail, and especially if they fail, well, in Jack's case, especially if they learn really what's going on here, well, then you got to go. And so they, they send Tatiana after your ass and. And she kills you. And despite being watched by the police abled Clarence. I just. I love how they show. Like, in the fourth episode, I kept thinking about how Clarence was right outside Jack's house as he's brutally murdered. And then he's. He's sitting there telling Jen, but don't worry, I'll be right outside. You're gonna be fine. Like, where were you when Jim. Let's just go back there.

Vera goes through what Auggie went through with the countdown

so, so anyways, so with Vera, I feel like she was going through what Auggie went through with the countdown, which we. Augie is. Has a very small part in these two episodes, which I found interesting. It was much more focused on Jin and Jack in the game, because with Augie, we do see her turn back on her. Her work, and immediately the countdown resumes, and so she shuts it down again. Like, this isn't something like she can step away from and then return to. No, she. Somehow she's been, tied to this thing. and so, and so, anyway, I just. I just felt like bringing that up about us.

Will: No, that's a good point, because especially with all these scientists. I mean, there's another 32 have died in the past few months. M. and we're seeing, you know, and Vera was one, and then now we're seeing it with Auggie and I guess. And I know we'll probably learn more about why this is happening, you know, and. And thinking about, like with you made a great point about Jen and win, Jay lying to Jen about the game. And then later, when she's. When Jen is being recruited, they, like, used sort of similar parallels as far as. Between Wen, Jay and Jen, as far as losing their fathers, you know, losing their family.

Will: you know, at least, you know, granted, Winjay lost her dad, you know, in a. In the cultural revolution, but Jen, losing her family and, you know, through floods, but just trying to find that, you know, that I guess that kindred common bond of. Of loss. And I don't think.

Sarah : I don't think it's trying to find that. It's trying to find a weakness and a point of manipulation.

Will: Yeah.

Will: And that's where I was going with that, is that they use that. They figured she was susceptible to being in this movement. And I guess they thought Jack was too, but they miscalculated with him and.

Sarah : No, sorry. I was just gonna say, I don't think they miscalculated. I think they knew all along.

Will: So. And I guess. And I bring that up because, I'm just trying to figure out, like, with these 32 now, Jack, you know, now the Oxford five has become the Oxford four, and maybe three, depending on if we lose will or not this season.

Will: Is.

Will: Is Asante behind this or behind what? Behind these scientists deaths or,

Will: Or.

Will: Well, maybe not directly behind it, but I guess. I guess Evans and Wenj are just because they're maybe a threat to, like, their goals.

Sarah : M right. Right. We still. We have barely.

Evans: The Sante are 400 years away from arriving officially

And this is actually a good segue to get into the. The big parts of episode four. Our lord, I think, to your point, maybe not directly connected to the Sante, of course, because they're 400 years away from arriving officially, but at the same time. Time, they have been able to provide some sort of technology, some sort of thing, because you got Tatiana walking all over the place and then erasing, CCTV footage. So there's clearly been a transference of technology, at the least up to Evans and Wenjie, that allows them to, use that in terms of protection. and there's been enough of it over the years where we see Wenjie basically tell them, like, you're only, like, I'm only here talking to you, because they're allowing that to happen. I found it very interesting, the subtle. Now, I'm going to say this while at the same time, considering this episode is called our Lord. Like, so far in the first four episodes, they have been toying with religious motifs and metaphors. I just hope that in the next four episodes, they don't go overboard. Like. Like, I just. I mean, they kind of are starting to. I mean, the fact that the ship, the oil rig that the whole cult basically lives on is called judgment Day. I'm like, really?

Will: Really?

Sarah : But it's also. I mean, besides this transference of technology we learn at the end of episode three and throughout episode four, is that Evans, he's. He's. He prides himself on reading stories to the Lord. And, he started with Hansel and Gretel, and then he made the awful mistake of reading Red Riding Hood. And, And initially with Hansel and Gretel, our Lord, who's. Who's the same voice. The voice that he hears, from the Sante is the same voice that is heard in the game itself.

Will: Yep.

Sarah : The female voice. And, in response to her questions about Hansel and Gretel, he explains, that humans have a lack of fear. And then she goes on and says, a lack of fear leads to distinction. Humanity must learn to fear again. And just when he thought it was dark, then it gets a bit darker. As. As he. I don't know why Evans thought this was a good idea. Like, I'm just gonna go ahead and explain to them what lying means and admits that I lie sometimes, too. Oh, wait. Humans lie. It's a trait we don't understand. What do you mean? What is this concept of lying? To deceive.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Oh, my God.

Will: Oh, God. Yeah, that one through.

Sarah : Well, they are 400 years away from getting here.

Will: 400 years away. But somehow. But they have the technology to, like, talk to the, you know, the Lord can talk to us instantaneously, and they could create these games and.

Sarah : Yeah, but it has been. I mean, it took six years for Wenjie to get a response from her first message. So since then, the communication, I'll buy. I do agree with you. They will. Why do you have all this technology if they're not here yet? And it's also going to take them so long to get here? And also, why are so many scientists dying now, even though it's going to take years for them to get here?

Will: Like, maybe, maybe the santee are, like, killing these science, you know, because, like, for example, auggies work. I mean, we saw like, this, not this microfiber. They're, they fit there.

Will: It's a threat.

Will: I mean, because by the time they get here, they, you know, whereas now we're just little, you know, we're just. We're sheep.

Sarah : Oh, I totally understand.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Why.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : I just don't quite get how.

Will: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, I get that. I do get some of the how, but I think it gets to what, you know, the. Some of the fear element, that you're the. That the santi were trying to get across to Evans there, that the humans must learn to fear again. because I guess it gets into that whole thing looking through the eyes of God and the religion element, like you noted, they are essentially God. They're doing these things maybe to kill these scientists and stuff, to just one, keep the people who are doing all these, masterful things as physics and metallurgy and all these things and science from keep, you know, basically help keep. Keep human humanity in their place.

Sarah : So maybe. But they also don't seem to understand a lot about humanity as we're learning through Evans. And he's been telling them these stories. So I don't, I don't think it's the Santi who are necessarily like saying, oh, these guys have to go because they're going to be a threat and all that. I view it more as Wen J and Evans who have identified these scientists as being the threat. They communicate that to them. And then through some mechanism that I'm sure we're going to get the answer to within the next two episodes, they receive the technology that allows them to protect and to minimize scientists scientific advancement. which, but then.

Questions arise about whether Wenjie and Evans had a child

Will: Yeah, well, yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up. And I thought about the first episode. It goes back to that first, that moment when she is like sitting there and she's pondering whether or not to hit send on that message because, you know, because of, because of all the things that she has been through up to that point and her feelings about humanity. And then you think about Evans, whereas whenever they, in this episode, we, you know, we see how they reconnect. You know, of course, when we first meet Evans, you know, he's the young idealist who just happens to have an old tycoon for her father. and then fast, you know, they meet in the eighties and now he's the old tycoon and he, you know, he's like, yeah, I'm, I'm still, I'm still the billy, I'm a billionaire, but I'm a billionaire who, who's going to do right with his money and still have, I'm still that idealist you met who wanted to build the trees in the forest and stuff.

Will: But at the same time, you're doing.

Will: All these other things that I guess trying to be a benevolent baron. But I mean, those things are kind of like oxymoron.

Sarah : Well, they, both of them, Evans, we don't, we don't fully know because we've spent way more time with Wenjie, especially in her past. And what led her to push send. and she at that point was like, well, f you guys, I know how to use this technology. I'm going to use it. I'm going to take the side of them because they're going to wipe your asses out. Like, fuck you. And then personally, I just think she wanted to, like, fuck Evans. So she.

Will: Well, they do. I mean, you know, whenever they started, whenever they kissed, I was like, oh, so I guess this is Vera's father.

Sarah : Well, see, I still question that just, Because he didn't stay at the funeral. And also, Wade didn't know about. Wade didn't know, really, the connection between Evans, at least from what I understood from the first episode, that at the time, Wade did not understand the connection between Evans and Wenjie. Now, if Wade, who knows a lot so far about what's really going on.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : And also, it's like, okay, then why haven't you been killed yet? But whatever.

Sarah : Like. Like, for. For that to be. For him to be Vera's father. Like, that raises a lot more questions. Questions for me about, like, okay, so at what point did you guys start this investigation and learn all of this stuff and really go after Evans? because you apparently missed a few decades there.

Will: Well, yeah, and maybe. Yeah, and maybe they did. Well, yeah, I figured because they did lose connection with one another.

Sarah : And, then also, why wasn't Vera on the boat if, like, just hear me out. If Wenj and Evans had a love child?

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Let's go. Fan fiction on, this. Why weren't. Why wasn't that child brought up on the boy on the boat? On the oil rig?

Will: Yeah.

Will: That's where you just blew my theory up out.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Yeah. I mean, it doesn't make. It wouldn't.

Will: It'll.

Sarah : It'll take a lot of explanation to make that work. I mean, they could because they. They wanted. I don't know. But it is. Yeah. So we'll learn more.

Will: Yeah, but. But clearly, regardless of whether they had a child or not, I mean, she. There is a relate. There was a. There was a bond in a relationship there where when they. Whenever they did meet up in the eighties, she confided it to him.

Will: Here's what I heard. Yeah. He.

Will: And he took it and ran with it and, you know, and got the judgment day boat because, you know, we later see them because the tower in China is no longer there. The communications tower is gone, but he finances the radar, you know, the antenna, the judgment days boat is there. They to.

You know, one of the things they are, you know, recruiting in this fourth episode

You know, one of the things they are, you know, that we do see in this fourth episode is, you know, they are recruiting the chosen ones to, your religious element of this. I mean, they do kind of see themselves as the chosen ones. And it's.

Sarah : Yeah, they're their protectors.

Will: And they're the protector. So, you know, the fuck the rest of these people. But, you know, so all these folks on the end, like, you know, with the little girl. I mean, with, you know, your point about. And the fondness of telling stories. I mean, she, you know, he does the same thing to the little girl, you know, on the boat. And also, it's just like, okay, I see where these connect. I'm seeing all these different pieces of the puzzle are all starting to converge into one singular story here, which is, you know, Wen Jay is the mastermind behind all of this. And in Evans is the financer, who also believes in this. and you're right. I mean, wait. Wade and Clarence definitely miss some elements in particular, as far as, you know, piecing these together whenever, Whenever he is. When they confront her at the end of episode four, after the arrest.

Sarah : So to speak, about the arrest, because, Jin, essentially, at the end of episode three, gets invited to advance to the fourth level, which is going to this orientation, this gathering of sorts, in which the founder is there, who turns out to be Wen jie. And then, of course, everything kind of goes to shit, as the police invade and arrests happen, Tatiana escapes magically, even though she does end up. End up, shooting Jin, and Jin getting injured. Not dead, injured. but why do you think that that happened? Because when Jay has the line that I said before where, like, this only happened because our lord allowed it to happen. So. So where do you fall? Are you. Are you on the side that. Yeah, they. The Santi are in the know about that being a possibility, or are they also just like, well, f. You guys. You guys are a bunch of liars. We're coming.

Will: I think they're coming. You know, I think Evans miscalculated in the sense that he.

Will: He.

Will: When he told the story about the liars and the Santi were like, we can't trust.

Will: Liars.

Will: We're afraid of you. Communications ended.

Will: He, you know, he. He was. He was.

Will: He was treating them like. Like he was just treating another human being and didn't think that this. The tantee has their own system of ethics and morals and code. and like you said earlier, it's like, how could we expect these aliens to understand our human concepts of deceit and light? so I think that was.

Will: A.

Will: Miscalculation on his part, whether or not, you know, what. What Wenjay was saying there. This is our lord's will. It just sounds like. It just sounds like, you know, any kind of, you know, you're running a mill cult leader who is so wrapped up in their. In their rightness of their worldview, that whether or not that's true or not, she believes that.

Will: Right?

Sarah : Right. No, I think, ah, I think both almost can be true. I think, in a weird way, she's not wrong. I don't know at what time that conversation, between the Santi and Evans ended and her speech got interrupted. So I don't know if he relayed, like, oh, our Lord. Like, we're on the bad side. We got to fix this.

Will: This.

Sarah : I don't know if that was, like, when Jay understood that that had happened at this point. so hopefully we'll get some sense about the timeline of when those two events occurred, because they could have occurred simultaneously, for all we know.

Will: I took it.

Will: That's the way I took it, that these things were happening real time together.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Oddly enough, I think we did a good job about going over the final point.

Where do you think Saul is in all of this?

I want to touch on, because I don't. I don't. I feel like he's kind of. He's kind of someone who definitely has a part to play, but I haven't seen too much of him. But where do you think Saul is in all of this? Because I know he has that relationship with Augie and, and he's honestly the first one, I think, of the Oxford five we technically meet. And, yeah, he's kind of there understanding things, but also not. And so I'm just. It's, Do you think that he'll be used more in later episodes or, like, what we've currently are got receiving of him?

Sarah : It'll stay about the same.

Will: I think we'll see more of him. I think he's the wild card here. because if I recall, whenever they had the game, he was. He didn't really. It was episode three. Did he like, was he first reticent to, like, explore the tech behind the game or. Like I said, I watched it earlier in the week, too, so I could add that detail.

Will: I can't remember that detail.

Sarah : He, He agreed with Augie.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : That they should never play again.

Will: Yes. That's.

Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I was thinking of.

Will: Yeah.

Will: So with that being said, I mean, I think Saul and Augie dancer. Question about Saul. Yes, I think he's going to be more of a player down the line. He's sort of. He's sort of that bridge character who like, you know, he was there when Auggie saw the sky blink. And, and, you know, he was with Will when they were going through Jack's things. And, and so he's sort of that. He's sort of that thread. He's sort of like us. he's the. He's the guy in the story, and he's watching things unfold. And like us as the audience member, Auggie, I don't know. I'm just not feeling Auggie. Auggie and will are still two characters where I'm sort of like, as far as the Oxford. Oxford four now. where I'm just kind of like, I could take them or leave them.

Sarah : I like Augie.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Yeah, yeah, I like her. so far, so, I technically like all of Oxford five, honestly. Will is the least, but he's dealing with cancer, and it just seems so bizarrely different from what everyone else is dealing with. And then that you have Saul, who's not really been touched by any of this so far, except that his. His friend died, so. And Vera died, so.

Will: Yeah. Yeah.

Will: And also to. Also with Saul, he and he and Augie have a very conflicted comp come. It's complicated as far as their relationship status.

Sarah : Right, right.

Will: Yeah.

Will: Ah.

Please rate, follow, and comment on our podcast on various platforms

Sarah : All right, well, that leads us, brings us to the end of this. We will return next week, with the next two episodes. Will, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you?

Will: Yes, you can find me on X, formally known as Twitter.

Will: Ah.

Will: Willmpolk.

Sarah : And you can find me there, too, at sjbelmont. S j b e l m m o n t please follow our crew on Twitter sana nerdfront us on Facebook, follow us on Instagram and threadsina scene, underscore n nerd, and visit our website, www.sceneanerdpodcast.com. But most importantly, rate, follow, and comment on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcast.

Will: Good night.

Sarah : Geek out. You're welcome.

Sarah : Greetings, nerds. This is Scene N nerd. I'm your host, Sarah Belmont. And with me, as always, is our mister producer, will polk. How are you doing tonight, will?

Will: Doing very well, sir. How are you doing this evening? Looking forward to talking, some shogun and three body problem. I've been getting a lot of people asking me about these, about this stuff. that they knew. They knew we like talking about these shows on our podcast.

Sarah : No, no, that's cool. I'm glad people are not only enjoying the shows themselves, but also enjoying our discussions about them. and we will certainly get to both shogun and, three body problem in a few minutes.

The Joker two trailer is coming next week on April 9

we first have some news to talk about. Starting off, Juliet Gardner is cast as a silver surfer in the fantastic four.

Will: Yep.

Sarah : Great. Cool. and the Joker two trailer is coming next week on April 9, and it's confirmed to be a rated r movie. So we will be probably talking about that trailer when it comes out next week.

Will: Yeah, yeah.

Andre from v tragically died in a motorcycle accident over the weekend

Sarah : And then, the sad news to bring up at the start of our show, but this tends to happen every now and then, is chance. Pardone. Andre from v tragically died in a motorcycle accident over the weekend. And, thoughts and prayers go out to him, his family, and loved ones, awake this tragedy and, like, needless to say, season two of Gen V is delayed indefinitely. So.

Will: Yeah, yeah, very, very sad thing about chance. And, you know, and he was en route to Toronto to start. they were going to start table reads for season two of Gen v. And, yeah, obviously, this tragedy completely overshadows anything as far as when they go back to. Back to work and stuff. And definitely faults and prayers out to his family and friends and the cast and all this loss.

Sarah : Yeah, I think it's always difficult in this situation because, like, somebody died and passed away, but you don't know that person, but they are in a project that you really love and support. And so, selfishly, my mind first went to, oh, man, that means season two. And it's so unfortunate. and then it's also the whole theory spiral of, well, what are they going to do? How will this change the story? What. What will the producers decide? Do you do a recast? Do you not? It's just. It's all up in the air at this point.

Will: Yeah. Yeah.

Will: Cause, I mean, it wasn't like he was just a bit player. I mean, he had a very integral part of. Of the show, and so. Yeah, you don't. I don't envy the hard decision that the creative team's gonna have to make here with. With what to do moving forward, right?

Sarah : Definitely.

We apologize for the butchering of names on this show. It happens. Um, it happens. So all these people who listen to us talk

and so that brings us to, shogun, episode seven. A stick of time outplayed, by new alliances in Ahsoka, Terangaga is faced to carve out a new deal with a long lost family member. So all these people who listen to us talk about a show and who tell you, do you immediately apologize for the butchering of names? I always. I listen to other people talk about this show. I watch the show, and yet every time I'm sitting here starting this conversation, the moment I get to one of the names, I suddenly start to question everything. and we haven't even got into Yabo Shige. Okay.

Will: Hey, you nailed it.

Will: You nailed it.

Sarah : I know, I know. But it's still. It's still like.

Will: Yeah, I know. I feel that way too. Yeah. Sometimes it's like, don't feel bad. It happens. And we apologize in advance for our western tongues. it happens.

Sarah : It does, it does.

This episode foreshadowed many of the major plot points in previous episodes

and sake. He's the half brother, right?

Will: Correct, correct, correct.

Sarah : He's the younger half brother.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : what did you think about his character in this episode?

Will: Wow.

Will: Well, this whole episode, as I know with previous, episodes, these titles really do a good job of foreshadowing many of the major plot points in it. As far as the character, he was very, very interesting as far as.

Will: Yeah.

Will: Thinking about our discussion with episode six and the Taiko and Lady Ochiba and the whole courtesan structure and how that really, colored my, like, watching of this episode because, you know. Yes. he is Tornago's half brother, younger brother. And when I was thinking of our conversation about Lady Oshiba, why she. Why the taiko ended up, why her son has this station, you know, it's because he was. She was a successful person to bear an heir. And. And so in Toronto's family, you know, clearly, you know, his mother definitely was, you know, a higher courtesan than in this concubine, then his half brother here in this episode, which, you know, not only the age difference that you have here, but also just the power, the. Yes, he's. He is also a lord, but because of where things fall, his. His rank is a little bit lower and station, you know, he got the. I guess he got the. The province that basically is just over. All he does is just overlook the water. He doesn't really have any, like, major things going on. So it, was really cool, you know, hearing that, set up as far as their relationship. And we already knew that was they had. They hadn't really weren't close and.

Will: And.

Will: And to how things unfold in this episode. You know, it was a fun episode to watch. There's a lot, you know, all the action and stuff, especially given how things at the end of last week with the whole crimson sky thinking it's going to be, we're going to have the conflict and stuff. And really, all that pretty much didn't really happen until action wise and really until the end of the episode. So, those are some of my initial thoughts about him as a character.

Sarah : So I'm confused. Did I miss something? Did they explain in the episode that both of them come from courtesans?

Will: This, is something I picked up from, the official podcast.

Sarah : Okay. Okay. Okay. I was. I was just sitting here. Like, I did not understand that at all.

Will: Yeah, no, no. But. But it did. Well, as I noted before, as I was watching it, I was thinking, like, you know, yes, they're both lords, but why is tornado like, you know, you know, there were things at. When they first meet there in the woods and, you know, and. And sake, like, talks about the lack of action that he's seeing in his fiefdom versus what tornaga is dealing with, with things going on, there in Edo and Izu, where, yabashige has, land. I just started thinking about all the ranks in our discussion last week. And then, like I said, as I was listening to the. The, official podcast, and they were talking about, the family dynamic and all, how that just really helped us reinforce my gut feelings and confirmed why the power structure is set up the way that it is within the family.

Will: Right. But also.

Will: Yeah, yeah, right.

Sarah : Okay.

Will: Yeah.

Will: And also color some things that we'll get to in a bit as far as, like, what was going on at the dinner before. Before the big. Before the big reveal there, the Lando Calrissian moment.

Sarah : Well, I don't want to, like, delay that. You always do this. You're like, we're gonna get to that.

I want to hear your thoughts on this week's Shogun 2 episode

Will: I want to hear your. I want to hear your thoughts, your initial thoughts on the episode before we go there.

Sarah : This episode is fine. I didn't think anything really stood out to me. This isn't. This. It's fine. I just, I'm still trying to articulate what I didn't like about this episode. and I listened. I didn't listen to the official podcast. I listened to Roka's podcast, and, his partner on that podcast that after show, is a book reader, and apparently this episode strays the most from the book. And, And he hated this episode.

Will: Well, yeah, you know, honestly, I've stopped listening to. I've stopped listening to them, just because I wanted to just sort of have just formulate my own opinions and stuff, not being a book reader. And also, you know, I think the. What I like about the official podcast, not to get into, like, let's talk about the episode. Not the podcast. About the podcast. But, they, just keep the counter just straight and just fill in the historical gaps and give some context for things that are transpiring to show. And also the official webpage for the show does that. A good job of that as well. So we recommend that to folks if you are. If you're looking for context or things to help help you, like, figure out some of the dynamics and stuff going on. The, Shogun companion website also has some really good things to help frame some of these things that are going on in the show.

Sarah : Right. So, yeah, so he didn't like this episode, and, he was articulating why and me not being a book reader, I found it very interesting because I'm like, I didn't read the books, so I didn't realize that none of this happened. But I walked away from the episode being like, oh, my God. Like, we're still stuck in the same situ. Like, we're. There was lack of progression overall in this episode for me. And, I think book readers approach this episode and just are mad about the use of Blackthorn. Me, a person who's never liked Blackthorn, I. I can't say it's because he. Of the use of him. I just, like, this is just classic storytelling. It's like, okay, we're building up to a big fight, and it looks like everything's going in favor of our hero, our main, like, tornaga. But now we have to basically take away his army. Like, put. Make sure his back is up, against the wall as we head into the third and final act. Like, you like, it's just. It was much more like, okay, I know he's going to get out of this. I don't know how he's going to get out of this. But I also just was like, cool, cool, cool. This. This feels like a filler. It feels like a filler.

Will: I completely. Yeah, this is gonna be fun tonight. Cause I completely disagree. I don't think this, but I think there was. There. I will. I will agree with you that as far as, like, no progression, I would agree with Mariko and Blackthorn. Things did seem kind of stagnant. They.

Sarah : See, I thought, one of the most interesting scenes in the episode.

Will: So, because that scene wasn't about.

Sarah : Them, it was about Bentaro. But everybody hates Bentaro for some reason. Because I just want to say, like, we got into a deep discussion about Bentaro and why he continues to not allow Mariko her one wish. And I think everyone should revisit that discussion based off of the scene in this episode where, again, he is faced with this situation where he wants to kill Blackthorn. Taranaga is like, I want both of these people to be alive, so I'm going to use your wife against you. And, he said, if Blackthorn dies, so does Mariko, because they are both a part of this affair that you are alluding to. And then Taro does not give in. He wants to, but he doesn't. And I think that is so interesting.

Will: Yeah, it is.

Will: It is.

Will: yeah, I mean, that those. That's definitely, definitely. I'm glad you brought that scene up. Cause it's definitely one that did stand out to me in, the episode. And, yeah, there was. You know, so when I say stagnation as far as them, I mean, it's more just like. It was just like, reinforced our discussion before and reinforced, like, the status quo of Black Thorn, the triangle there. as far as him wanting to kill Black Thorn, Tornado is forbidding it, and Mariko wants to end things, but Toranaga is not allowing it. So that's what I meant by it just felt like it was. That, to me, was where things did feel status quo. But other parts of the episode, I felt did progress things quite a bit.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Yeah, you can go on because I honestly am curious about, what parts in particular?

Will: Well, I mean. Well, since we did.

Toronaga needs help with his army after two regents resign

Since I did bring up the dinner, I mean, I think the dinner with, the,

Will: As I.

Will: As I joke, the Lando Calrissian moment, because, you know, the tornado goes to his half brother, like, Han Solo goes to bespin looking for, looking for refuge from the circumstances that they're under. And in this case, Toranaga. His army's decimated. He needs help to do this crimson, crimson sky plan. And so he goes to his brother, and of course, his brother, unbeknownst to Toronaga, sees now that there's, like, two vacancies on the. On the council of regents, due to tornadoes, you know, resigning. And then, of course, the other regent getting killed in last week's episode.

Will: you know, sake, like, sees the seize just a moment to. To basically one up his half brother and gains a foothold on the. On the council, gets a scene on the council and. And carry out. Carries out the mission of getting this impeachment done. So, you know, so even though it seemed like things were kind of hitting a. Hitting a wall and tornado is always figuring out ways out of things, he. This is that moment where it was just like, oh, instead of tornado always being one step of a. First of, What's going on? This was the first time, I think I felt in this series where he really doesn't know. He's not one step ahead of everybody else as far as right.

Sarah : I mean, that's fair. I think that was the whole intention of this episode. I mean, again, like I said before, it's about the purpose is to make sure that the viewers believe that there is no way out of this. The back is up against the wall, everything. Like, all the plans, plan a, b, and c are a no go. So it makes sense. I mean, black thorn's gonna do something that's gonna help lead to victory, whatever. so I guess I just. I understand what you're saying. I just feel like his. His army. I keep having to remind myself when the earthquake happened, I feel like it's been four episodes and maybe it's been three episodes, but I'm just like, what is time right now? How long have we been here?

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Yeah. So it just. It felt more like, okay, we're. You're. You're still trying to figure out your way out of this situation, because he. He, like, the. Going to the half brother was a last ditch effort, so he kind of didn't want to do that because he kind of knew. So there's a part of me that. I mean, I think Gia said it, or Jin from the Willow world said it, even to Toron Aga and implied it. Like, he invited his brother here, knowing their relationship, knowing what's going on with the council. He's too smart to not think about that being the outcome. So it just. I don't know. I. I don't buy that. Everything completely took him by surprise, so.

Will: Well, and maybe it didn't take him by surprise, but maybe. But he did seem.

I think this episode was a filler, but it progressed significantly

I'm glad you brought up Jim, because I wanted to talk about that conversation next. it did seem at this point, and he was kind of resigned to his fate after sake did pull the power play there and at the dinner and, you know, handed him the impeachment papers and also the execution work for, nagato. Yeah.

Sarah : But we've seen him resign to his fate in earlier episodes before they even left Osaka. Like, he's like, yeah, I'm just going to chill here. You all are going to leave. And then he snuck his way out.

Will: Yeah, but see, this time he didn't sneak his way out.

Sarah : He's just like, okay, we don't know that yet. Will we see, like, we have not watched the next episode. We don't know. What I'm saying, though, is like, yeah, he seemed more resigned, but I think it's all for show. I'm not buying it. I'm not not buying it fully because the man has proven, like, done the stoicness before and yet still had a plan b up his, up his sleeve. And, and, and he still, at the end of the day, Tornado still knows Blackthorn and his cannons are the Joker cards up his sleeve. Yeah, that, like, crimson sky or not, they, they still, he still has some pieces, to move around this board. So I just, I guess it just to me, when I say there was a lack of movement, I understand how the episode connects from the previous one to this one and where the characters are and the purpose of this episode. I just feel like it was kind of like a filler where I'm just like, okay, well, now we have to get here where all hope is lost so that we can uprise and get victory.

Will: Yeah, see, I think fillers. I see your point. I think fillers and, ah, maybe it's just because when I hear filler, I just take that as such an, as a negative connotation with, with an episode or something, else. I mean, it's not like thinking back to our arrivers days where we had like the Flash filler where it's just like just a junk episode where there's like a bottle show where they're just trying to get through. I don't, I don't feel like this. This was, this was not, to me, at least in my definition of a filler, I didn't feel like. I don't think it was a filler episode. I mean, I think it progressed things significantly. Even foreshadowing in some respect to getting back to are cop with Jen and Tornaga. I'm glad you mentioned that because they, you're right. I mean, Tornado and even Jen are both long term thinkers. I mean, with Jen, with her proposal to him, with wanting to set up a district in Edo to, you know, and, you know, it is foreshadowing that that does lead to the. To the geishas down the line. I mean, because her corsons are the forerunners of that. ito basically is the precursor to Tokyo. so I see that that's where I was. Just, like, there's things going that, are happening here that are moving the story forward. And even Tornaga does that whenever he's preparing for whatever eventuality is going to come his way, you know, he makes sure he sets aside the land for her and all that kind of stuff. So things, to me, it was like things were progressing, right?

Sarah : So I guess so, I mean, historically, I'm just going to move on to the.

Did Jin know about Jinn's plan and will she receive a punishment next episode

To the final point about the willow world, because I thought it was strange. Well, I don't know how to explain this point, but. So Tornaga writes Jinn into her will, but this is before his son decides to try to kill his uncle in the Willow world. and so then the question is, did Jin know about this plan and will she receive a punishment in the next episode?

Will: I don't think so.

Will: No.

Will: I was gonna say, I think the courtesan now is now Kuki knew. I think she knew it was one down. But I don't. I don't think, I don't think. I mean, the only thing Jen made m. I mean, I guess to your point, Jen might have known something was going down because she did adjust her fee for, Lady Kiku down so that she could have that conversation with Toronto. So that's where the whole stick of time comes from, is.

Sarah : Yeah.

Will: Yeah.

Will: So maybe that to the. To your point, I mean, maybe she, you know, she. From their conversation, maybe she was like. And they both have done this, like, even with Kiku. Like, I think she said things to ami, and to. Or maybe Gia said things to Ami in the past, too, to sort of put plant seeds in people's minds about stuff. So maybe. Yeah, maybe that there is. I could give you that.

Will: Right?

Sarah : Yeah, I guess I'm not sure what you're. What you're. I'm, like, glad that you're agreeing with me, but at the same time, I'm like, I don't know if we're actually agreeing about the same thing.

Will: Well, no, I agree with you that she may have known what was going on. I just, But I think, I think fundamentally, we both are. I think we're at odds in that, whether or not. And what I was saying to you was, I don't feel that this was a filler episode.

Will: No, no.

Sarah : I know. We're back there.

Will: Yes, Sarah. I know.

Sarah : Use the word filler again. My God. I get it. Okay. Okay. Since this is not a filler episode, I retract my statement. Good lord. Talk about.

Are people questioning if Nagadaru is still alive? I've seen some speculation

Because I have, like, I just wanted to talk about the end, the middle. So, anything else about this episode?

Sarah : I'm losing. I'm losing track here about where we're going.

Will: No, it's not. I mean. I mean, I think we hit most of the major points.

Will: in a roundabout way. I mean, other than, do you think that, Nagadaru is dead? Or do you think he. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah : Was that. Was that, like, did. Are people questioning if he's still alive?

Will: I've seen some stuff out there. Yeah, I've seen some. Yeah, I've seen some stuff out there. But yeah, I think he sees a goner.

Sarah : We actually witnessed him dying. This was no bun taro.

Will: Okay.

Will: Maybe that's why people are like, maybe he's still. Maybe there's a chance.

Sarah : Oh, you guys are not playing the same rules anymore. okay, are you sure that there's nothing else? Because you really enjoyed this episode. So I just want to make sure you get all of your points out there.

Will: I mean. I mean, I guess as far as yabushige, I mean, he had. He's still the, mvp of the show when he has these moments. Especially, like, with black boring and stuff this week. But, you know, and also, you know, he still. The disrespect the poor guy has. I mean, Tornado, his half brother, like, is asking for Izu, and they're like, oh, yeah, you can have it just keeps getting shit on.

Sarah : Well, he. He is, Is a rat of some sort. So, yeah, makes sense.

Will: But, No, no, like I said, I think. Yeah, I think this is definitely, you know, I know sometimes we'll have weeks where one, of us is. Feels an episode better than the other. And I think, this is definitely one of those weeks.

Sarah : Yeah. I mean, I always enjoy talking, through those points. And sometimes you convince me, but you, so far, you have not convinced me of anything.

Will: Yeah.

Will: wasn't trying to.

Sarah : No, I think you were. I think you always are. but hey, maybe. Maybe you swayed some of our listeners who might have started on the beginning, on my side, on the beginning. But, No, this is still a good show. I'm not saying it's a bad show. It's just, at the end of the day, this episode was nowhere near one of my favorites. I think one of my problems is that I think in the first few episodes, there was, infighting happening, and then there was also the larger picture about the world at the time in Spain and all of these other countries. And I really thought that was fascinating. But since leaving Osaka, we've gotten very little of the Spanish, and their role in all of this politicking. So. So that kind of lost some steam there for me. But,

Will: Yeah, no, yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. We haven't seen the Portuguese much, and I think maybe that's. Maybe some people. Why, as you were noting, With folks feeling like black thorn maybe getting sideline or whatever, that. That bigger picture as far as it's getting so insular, I guess, is, what sounds like what you're saying. And. And the larger. How this plays out in the larger world is. Is. Definitely. Has receded some over the last few episodes.

Sarah : Right. Right. I. And. But at the same time, I understand why. Ah, like, it's not. Not making sense. It just. They're not telling the stories the way I would want them to in a way.

Sarah : Or the way that really intrigues me.

Will: So.

Episode three of The Walking Dead answered many questions from the first two episodes

Sarah : So on that note, we move to episode three of, three. Body problem, destroyer of worlds. Obsessed with their virtual reality quest, Jin and Jack raced to solve a complex riddle by. But advancing to the next level brings harrowing consequences. Will, what did you think about this episode?

Will: Actually, I want you to go first this time.

Sarah : So a few things about this episode, and, I'm sorry for the stream of consciousness that is about to occur, but when we're talking a show like this, I don't know. I don't know. So I found it interesting to watch. I'm so glad that these two episodes we watched back to back.

Will: I agree.

Sarah : they answered a lot. A lot of questions from the first two episodes. Almost too many questions, in my opinion. So, basically, this episode is mainly about the game, which will was correct that it was what's, his face. Evans is behind the game. we learned about that. Not a lot of flashbacks in these two episodes. Just FYI. Not a lot of flashbacks. especially in this episode. I don't think there's a single flashback in this episode. so we learned that Evans is behind the game. We learn that this, killed me. I felt so bad for you, because if anybody listened to us talk about the first two episodes, will had a theory about why this was called three body problem. And, and in this episode, it was explained that it's called three body problem because in the game, there's a three body problem, which is basically where three bodies, it's. You can't predict what's going to happen in space when there are three bodies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like a three star system, which, which it's. Until it's, it's. Then, I think by the end of it, after they, they figured that out, Jin figures that out. And then they advanced to level four. And then they meet, creepy girl. so they meet her, and then she explains that the game portrays what actually is happening to the aliens who, Wenji in China all those years ago, basically told them to come. And here's the coordinates to our earth, because their earth, their planet, what are the aliens called? The Saiti.

Will: Santi.

Sarah : Santi are in on a planet that is essentially being played out in this game. And so they make this communication with Wenjie, who invites them, to our planet. Now, here's my thing. And I'm sure I probably, I don't think I went too deep. I don't think I went at all into the next episode. But in the next episode, it is explained that it'll take them 400 years to get here. And at that point, I immediately thought to myself, I'm like, why is this so urgent that we figure this stuff out? We got 400 years. What's with. I have a lot of questions about why scientists are dying and all this, but like I said, they answered some, almost too many questions for me. But at the same time, there's still, like, some where it's like, wait, what's happening?

This episode really explained the science behind the Santee game

so will, on that note, what did you think about the whole explanation about the game, the santee, and, them basically killing your least favorite character?

Will: So as far as. Yeah, so if you, if you like the game, aspect of the first two episodes, this episode was definitely for you. and I did like the games and, but also, but also I think it did the right thing by ending the levels, you know, because I was beginning to wonder, like, you know, are we going to get a whole season of, like, you know, we're going to keep leveling up and leveling up and leveling up. And in this episode, they're like, whenever we do learn that, we get to level four. And basically that was like your invitation to whatever the group of Santee, cult followers are. You know, I don't think they've given him a name yet. but, so we had resolution. So I was like, okay, fair enough. no more. You know, we. We learned, you know, they get confirmation to our theory last week that Evans was behind the game. And, you know, as far as the three body problem thing, what I was. Well, I was going to get into the science about that last week, and I think I touched on it some, which, they did. But they did really flesh it out and explain it. you know, I know they mentioned it in episode two last week with the sun, Jupiter and Earth, using Jupiter as an, you know, using the sun as an antenna to, like, magnify the signal that Wenjie, you know, ended up doing. but then this week, they, you know, they really got into it, you know, got into the whole classic physics, newtonian physics of what, you know, the scientific explanation of what it is. But also, you know, in the context of the game, as far as when Jen and Jack, you know, really learned what the true purpose of the game was, which was, you know, and, you know, we've gotten sprinkles of it where they were, you know, where they were really exploring, you know, what's stronger? Is it mysticism, religion? Or is science, you know, as far as these challenges within the game, and then once they figure out what the true motivations of the game was and the purpose for it, I agree with you that it was really good to watch three and four together because they definitely complemented each other. watching these two as a unit.

Sarah : Right, right. I still. Because I still.

I mean, the winjay's daughter, Vera, dies, and

I mean, the winjay's daughter, Vera, dies, and, she kills herself. It's very clear. She kills herself. and she talks about God. Now, we're still not sure, because here's what I'm trying to get at.

Will: Yeah. Okay.

Sarah : Hear me out. When Jay gives the headset to Jin, and he tells her, Vera has been obsessed with this game. I don't know where it came from. Blah, blah, blah, lie, lie, lie.

Will: Right.

Sarah : And. And just invites her. Now, we also know that Jack can't wear that headset because he wasn't invited. Yeah, I don't think Vera was playing that game.

Will: I agree. Especially when we saw whenever Auggie tried the game, and she got the same, you know, same results that Jack did.

Sarah : Right, right.

Will: It just.

Sarah : It doesn't. It. I think Jack couldn't play the game until he actually received one. And I keep thinking about the way Vera died. I m don't, It seems like with the game, because they're being recruited, they're being sussed out through the game to join this culture. And. And, And then if. If they fail, and especially if they fail, well, in Jack's case, especially if they learn really what's going on here, well, then you got to go. And so they, they send Tatiana after your ass and. And she kills you. And despite being watched by the police abled Clarence. I just. I love how they show. Like, in the fourth episode, I kept thinking about how Clarence was right outside Jack's house as he's brutally murdered. And then he's. He's sitting there telling Jen, but don't worry, I'll be right outside. You're gonna be fine. Like, where were you when Jim. Let's just go back there.

Vera goes through what Auggie went through with the countdown

so, so anyways, so with Vera, I feel like she was going through what Auggie went through with the countdown, which we. Augie is. Has a very small part in these two episodes, which I found interesting. It was much more focused on Jin and Jack in the game, because with Augie, we do see her turn back on her. Her work, and immediately the countdown resumes, and so she shuts it down again. Like, this isn't something like she can step away from and then return to. No, she. Somehow she's been, tied to this thing. and so, and so, anyway, I just. I just felt like bringing that up about us.

Will: No, that's a good point, because especially with all these scientists. I mean, there's another 32 have died in the past few months. M. and we're seeing, you know, and Vera was one, and then now we're seeing it with Auggie and I guess. And I know we'll probably learn more about why this is happening, you know, and. And thinking about, like with you made a great point about Jen and win, Jay lying to Jen about the game. And then later, when she's. When Jen is being recruited, they, like, used sort of similar parallels as far as. Between Wen, Jay and Jen, as far as losing their fathers, you know, losing their family.

Will: you know, at least, you know, granted, Winjay lost her dad, you know, in a. In the cultural revolution, but Jen, losing her family and, you know, through floods, but just trying to find that, you know, that I guess that kindred common bond of. Of loss. And I don't think.

Sarah : I don't think it's trying to find that. It's trying to find a weakness and a point of manipulation.

Will: Yeah.

Will: And that's where I was going with that, is that they use that. They figured she was susceptible to being in this movement. And I guess they thought Jack was too, but they miscalculated with him and.

Sarah : No, sorry. I was just gonna say, I don't think they miscalculated. I think they knew all along.

Will: So. And I guess. And I bring that up because, I'm just trying to figure out, like, with these 32 now, Jack, you know, now the Oxford five has become the Oxford four, and maybe three, depending on if we lose will or not this season.

Will: Is.

Will: Is Asante behind this or behind what? Behind these scientists deaths or,

Will: Or.

Will: Well, maybe not directly behind it, but I guess. I guess Evans and Wenj are just because they're maybe a threat to, like, their goals.

Sarah : M right. Right. We still. We have barely.

Evans: The Sante are 400 years away from arriving officially

And this is actually a good segue to get into the. The big parts of episode four. Our lord, I think, to your point, maybe not directly connected to the Sante, of course, because they're 400 years away from arriving officially, but at the same time. Time, they have been able to provide some sort of technology, some sort of thing, because you got Tatiana walking all over the place and then erasing, CCTV footage. So there's clearly been a transference of technology, at the least up to Evans and Wenjie, that allows them to, use that in terms of protection. and there's been enough of it over the years where we see Wenjie basically tell them, like, you're only, like, I'm only here talking to you, because they're allowing that to happen. I found it very interesting, the subtle. Now, I'm going to say this while at the same time, considering this episode is called our Lord. Like, so far in the first four episodes, they have been toying with religious motifs and metaphors. I just hope that in the next four episodes, they don't go overboard. Like. Like, I just. I mean, they kind of are starting to. I mean, the fact that the ship, the oil rig that the whole cult basically lives on is called judgment Day. I'm like, really?

Will: Really?

Sarah : But it's also. I mean, besides this transference of technology we learn at the end of episode three and throughout episode four, is that Evans, he's. He's. He prides himself on reading stories to the Lord. And, he started with Hansel and Gretel, and then he made the awful mistake of reading Red Riding Hood. And, And initially with Hansel and Gretel, our Lord, who's. Who's the same voice. The voice that he hears, from the Sante is the same voice that is heard in the game itself.

Will: Yep.

Sarah : The female voice. And, in response to her questions about Hansel and Gretel, he explains, that humans have a lack of fear. And then she goes on and says, a lack of fear leads to distinction. Humanity must learn to fear again. And just when he thought it was dark, then it gets a bit darker. As. As he. I don't know why Evans thought this was a good idea. Like, I'm just gonna go ahead and explain to them what lying means and admits that I lie sometimes, too. Oh, wait. Humans lie. It's a trait we don't understand. What do you mean? What is this concept of lying? To deceive.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Oh, my God.

Will: Oh, God. Yeah, that one through.

Sarah : Well, they are 400 years away from getting here.

Will: 400 years away. But somehow. But they have the technology to, like, talk to the, you know, the Lord can talk to us instantaneously, and they could create these games and.

Sarah : Yeah, but it has been. I mean, it took six years for Wenjie to get a response from her first message. So since then, the communication, I'll buy. I do agree with you. They will. Why do you have all this technology if they're not here yet? And it's also going to take them so long to get here? And also, why are so many scientists dying now, even though it's going to take years for them to get here?

Will: Like, maybe, maybe the santee are, like, killing these science, you know, because, like, for example, auggies work. I mean, we saw like, this, not this microfiber. They're, they fit there.

Will: It's a threat.

Will: I mean, because by the time they get here, they, you know, whereas now we're just little, you know, we're just. We're sheep.

Sarah : Oh, I totally understand.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Why.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : I just don't quite get how.

Will: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, I get that. I do get some of the how, but I think it gets to what, you know, the. Some of the fear element, that you're the. That the santi were trying to get across to Evans there, that the humans must learn to fear again. because I guess it gets into that whole thing looking through the eyes of God and the religion element, like you noted, they are essentially God. They're doing these things maybe to kill these scientists and stuff, to just one, keep the people who are doing all these, masterful things as physics and metallurgy and all these things and science from keep, you know, basically help keep. Keep human humanity in their place.

Sarah : So maybe. But they also don't seem to understand a lot about humanity as we're learning through Evans. And he's been telling them these stories. So I don't, I don't think it's the Santi who are necessarily like saying, oh, these guys have to go because they're going to be a threat and all that. I view it more as Wen J and Evans who have identified these scientists as being the threat. They communicate that to them. And then through some mechanism that I'm sure we're going to get the answer to within the next two episodes, they receive the technology that allows them to protect and to minimize scientists scientific advancement. which, but then.

Questions arise about whether Wenjie and Evans had a child

Will: Yeah, well, yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up. And I thought about the first episode. It goes back to that first, that moment when she is like sitting there and she's pondering whether or not to hit send on that message because, you know, because of, because of all the things that she has been through up to that point and her feelings about humanity. And then you think about Evans, whereas whenever they, in this episode, we, you know, we see how they reconnect. You know, of course, when we first meet Evans, you know, he's the young idealist who just happens to have an old tycoon for her father. and then fast, you know, they meet in the eighties and now he's the old tycoon and he, you know, he's like, yeah, I'm, I'm still, I'm still the billy, I'm a billionaire, but I'm a billionaire who, who's going to do right with his money and still have, I'm still that idealist you met who wanted to build the trees in the forest and stuff.

Will: But at the same time, you're doing.

Will: All these other things that I guess trying to be a benevolent baron. But I mean, those things are kind of like oxymoron.

Sarah : Well, they, both of them, Evans, we don't, we don't fully know because we've spent way more time with Wenjie, especially in her past. And what led her to push send. and she at that point was like, well, f you guys, I know how to use this technology. I'm going to use it. I'm going to take the side of them because they're going to wipe your asses out. Like, fuck you. And then personally, I just think she wanted to, like, fuck Evans. So she.

Will: Well, they do. I mean, you know, whenever they started, whenever they kissed, I was like, oh, so I guess this is Vera's father.

Sarah : Well, see, I still question that just, Because he didn't stay at the funeral. And also, Wade didn't know about. Wade didn't know, really, the connection between Evans, at least from what I understood from the first episode, that at the time, Wade did not understand the connection between Evans and Wenjie. Now, if Wade, who knows a lot so far about what's really going on.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : And also, it's like, okay, then why haven't you been killed yet? But whatever.

Sarah : Like. Like, for. For that to be. For him to be Vera's father. Like, that raises a lot more questions. Questions for me about, like, okay, so at what point did you guys start this investigation and learn all of this stuff and really go after Evans? because you apparently missed a few decades there.

Will: Well, yeah, and maybe. Yeah, and maybe they did. Well, yeah, I figured because they did lose connection with one another.

Sarah : And, then also, why wasn't Vera on the boat if, like, just hear me out. If Wenj and Evans had a love child?

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Let's go. Fan fiction on, this. Why weren't. Why wasn't that child brought up on the boy on the boat? On the oil rig?

Will: Yeah.

Will: That's where you just blew my theory up out.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Yeah. I mean, it doesn't make. It wouldn't.

Will: It'll.

Sarah : It'll take a lot of explanation to make that work. I mean, they could because they. They wanted. I don't know. But it is. Yeah. So we'll learn more.

Will: Yeah, but. But clearly, regardless of whether they had a child or not, I mean, she. There is a relate. There was a. There was a bond in a relationship there where when they. Whenever they did meet up in the eighties, she confided it to him.

Will: Here's what I heard. Yeah. He.

Will: And he took it and ran with it and, you know, and got the judgment day boat because, you know, we later see them because the tower in China is no longer there. The communications tower is gone, but he finances the radar, you know, the antenna, the judgment days boat is there. They to.

You know, one of the things they are, you know, recruiting in this fourth episode

You know, one of the things they are, you know, that we do see in this fourth episode is, you know, they are recruiting the chosen ones to, your religious element of this. I mean, they do kind of see themselves as the chosen ones. And it's.

Sarah : Yeah, they're their protectors.

Will: And they're the protector. So, you know, the fuck the rest of these people. But, you know, so all these folks on the end, like, you know, with the little girl. I mean, with, you know, your point about. And the fondness of telling stories. I mean, she, you know, he does the same thing to the little girl, you know, on the boat. And also, it's just like, okay, I see where these connect. I'm seeing all these different pieces of the puzzle are all starting to converge into one singular story here, which is, you know, Wen Jay is the mastermind behind all of this. And in Evans is the financer, who also believes in this. and you're right. I mean, wait. Wade and Clarence definitely miss some elements in particular, as far as, you know, piecing these together whenever, Whenever he is. When they confront her at the end of episode four, after the arrest.

Sarah : So to speak, about the arrest, because, Jin, essentially, at the end of episode three, gets invited to advance to the fourth level, which is going to this orientation, this gathering of sorts, in which the founder is there, who turns out to be Wen jie. And then, of course, everything kind of goes to shit, as the police invade and arrests happen, Tatiana escapes magically, even though she does end up. End up, shooting Jin, and Jin getting injured. Not dead, injured. but why do you think that that happened? Because when Jay has the line that I said before where, like, this only happened because our lord allowed it to happen. So. So where do you fall? Are you. Are you on the side that. Yeah, they. The Santi are in the know about that being a possibility, or are they also just like, well, f. You guys. You guys are a bunch of liars. We're coming.

Will: I think they're coming. You know, I think Evans miscalculated in the sense that he.

Will: He.

Will: When he told the story about the liars and the Santi were like, we can't trust.

Will: Liars.

Will: We're afraid of you. Communications ended.

Will: He, you know, he. He was. He was.

Will: He was treating them like. Like he was just treating another human being and didn't think that this. The tantee has their own system of ethics and morals and code. and like you said earlier, it's like, how could we expect these aliens to understand our human concepts of deceit and light? so I think that was.

Will: A.

Will: Miscalculation on his part, whether or not, you know, what. What Wenjay was saying there. This is our lord's will. It just sounds like. It just sounds like, you know, any kind of, you know, you're running a mill cult leader who is so wrapped up in their. In their rightness of their worldview, that whether or not that's true or not, she believes that.

Will: Right?

Sarah : Right. No, I think, ah, I think both almost can be true. I think, in a weird way, she's not wrong. I don't know at what time that conversation, between the Santi and Evans ended and her speech got interrupted. So I don't know if he relayed, like, oh, our Lord. Like, we're on the bad side. We got to fix this.

Will: This.

Sarah : I don't know if that was, like, when Jay understood that that had happened at this point. so hopefully we'll get some sense about the timeline of when those two events occurred, because they could have occurred simultaneously, for all we know.

Will: I took it.

Will: That's the way I took it, that these things were happening real time together.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Oddly enough, I think we did a good job about going over the final point.

Where do you think Saul is in all of this?

I want to touch on, because I don't. I don't. I feel like he's kind of. He's kind of someone who definitely has a part to play, but I haven't seen too much of him. But where do you think Saul is in all of this? Because I know he has that relationship with Augie and, and he's honestly the first one, I think, of the Oxford five we technically meet. And, yeah, he's kind of there understanding things, but also not. And so I'm just. It's, Do you think that he'll be used more in later episodes or, like, what we've currently are got receiving of him?

Sarah : It'll stay about the same.

Will: I think we'll see more of him. I think he's the wild card here. because if I recall, whenever they had the game, he was. He didn't really. It was episode three. Did he like, was he first reticent to, like, explore the tech behind the game or. Like I said, I watched it earlier in the week, too, so I could add that detail.

Will: I can't remember that detail.

Sarah : He, He agreed with Augie.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : That they should never play again.

Will: Yes. That's.

Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I was thinking of.

Will: Yeah.

Will: So with that being said, I mean, I think Saul and Augie dancer. Question about Saul. Yes, I think he's going to be more of a player down the line. He's sort of. He's sort of that bridge character who like, you know, he was there when Auggie saw the sky blink. And, and, you know, he was with Will when they were going through Jack's things. And, and so he's sort of that. He's sort of that thread. He's sort of like us. he's the. He's the guy in the story, and he's watching things unfold. And like us as the audience member, Auggie, I don't know. I'm just not feeling Auggie. Auggie and will are still two characters where I'm sort of like, as far as the Oxford. Oxford four now. where I'm just kind of like, I could take them or leave them.

Sarah : I like Augie.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Yeah, yeah, I like her. so far, so, I technically like all of Oxford five, honestly. Will is the least, but he's dealing with cancer, and it just seems so bizarrely different from what everyone else is dealing with. And then that you have Saul, who's not really been touched by any of this so far, except that his. His friend died, so. And Vera died, so.

Will: Yeah. Yeah.

Will: And also to. Also with Saul, he and he and Augie have a very conflicted comp come. It's complicated as far as their relationship status.

Sarah : Right, right.

Will: Yeah.

Will: Ah.

Please rate, follow, and comment on our podcast on various platforms

Sarah : All right, well, that leads us, brings us to the end of this. We will return next week, with the next two episodes. Will, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you?

Will: Yes, you can find me on X, formally known as Twitter.

Will: Ah.

Will: Willmpolk.

Sarah : And you can find me there, too, at sjbelmont. S j b e l m m o n t please follow our crew on Twitter sana nerdfront us on Facebook, follow us on Instagram and threadsina scene, underscore n nerd, and visit our website, www.sceneanerdpodcast.com. But most importantly, rate, follow, and comment on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcast.

Will: Good night.

Sarah : Geek out. You're welcome.

Sarah : Greetings, nerds. This is Scene N nerd. I'm your host, Sarah Belmont. And with me, as always, is our mister producer, will polk. How are you doing tonight, will?

Will: Doing very well, sir. How are you doing this evening? Looking forward to talking, some shogun and three body problem. I've been getting a lot of people asking me about these, about this stuff. that they knew. They knew we like talking about these shows on our podcast.

Sarah : No, no, that's cool. I'm glad people are not only enjoying the shows themselves, but also enjoying our discussions about them. and we will certainly get to both shogun and, three body problem in a few minutes.

The Joker two trailer is coming next week on April 9

we first have some news to talk about. Starting off, Juliet Gardner is cast as a silver surfer in the fantastic four.

Will: Yep.

Sarah : Great. Cool. and the Joker two trailer is coming next week on April 9, and it's confirmed to be a rated r movie. So we will be probably talking about that trailer when it comes out next week.

Will: Yeah, yeah.

Andre from v tragically died in a motorcycle accident over the weekend

Sarah : And then, the sad news to bring up at the start of our show, but this tends to happen every now and then, is chance. Pardone. Andre from v tragically died in a motorcycle accident over the weekend. And, thoughts and prayers go out to him, his family, and loved ones, awake this tragedy and, like, needless to say, season two of Gen V is delayed indefinitely. So.

Will: Yeah, yeah, very, very sad thing about chance. And, you know, and he was en route to Toronto to start. they were going to start table reads for season two of Gen v. And, yeah, obviously, this tragedy completely overshadows anything as far as when they go back to. Back to work and stuff. And definitely faults and prayers out to his family and friends and the cast and all this loss.

Sarah : Yeah, I think it's always difficult in this situation because, like, somebody died and passed away, but you don't know that person, but they are in a project that you really love and support. And so, selfishly, my mind first went to, oh, man, that means season two. And it's so unfortunate. and then it's also the whole theory spiral of, well, what are they going to do? How will this change the story? What. What will the producers decide? Do you do a recast? Do you not? It's just. It's all up in the air at this point.

Will: Yeah. Yeah.

Will: Cause, I mean, it wasn't like he was just a bit player. I mean, he had a very integral part of. Of the show, and so. Yeah, you don't. I don't envy the hard decision that the creative team's gonna have to make here with. With what to do moving forward, right?

Sarah : Definitely.

We apologize for the butchering of names on this show. It happens. Um, it happens. So all these people who listen to us talk

and so that brings us to, shogun, episode seven. A stick of time outplayed, by new alliances in Ahsoka, Terangaga is faced to carve out a new deal with a long lost family member. So all these people who listen to us talk about a show and who tell you, do you immediately apologize for the butchering of names? I always. I listen to other people talk about this show. I watch the show, and yet every time I'm sitting here starting this conversation, the moment I get to one of the names, I suddenly start to question everything. and we haven't even got into Yabo Shige. Okay.

Will: Hey, you nailed it.

Will: You nailed it.

Sarah : I know, I know. But it's still. It's still like.

Will: Yeah, I know. I feel that way too. Yeah. Sometimes it's like, don't feel bad. It happens. And we apologize in advance for our western tongues. it happens.

Sarah : It does, it does.

This episode foreshadowed many of the major plot points in previous episodes

and sake. He's the half brother, right?

Will: Correct, correct, correct.

Sarah : He's the younger half brother.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : what did you think about his character in this episode?

Will: Wow.

Will: Well, this whole episode, as I know with previous, episodes, these titles really do a good job of foreshadowing many of the major plot points in it. As far as the character, he was very, very interesting as far as.

Will: Yeah.

Will: Thinking about our discussion with episode six and the Taiko and Lady Ochiba and the whole courtesan structure and how that really, colored my, like, watching of this episode because, you know. Yes. he is Tornago's half brother, younger brother. And when I was thinking of our conversation about Lady Oshiba, why she. Why the taiko ended up, why her son has this station, you know, it's because he was. She was a successful person to bear an heir. And. And so in Toronto's family, you know, clearly, you know, his mother definitely was, you know, a higher courtesan than in this concubine, then his half brother here in this episode, which, you know, not only the age difference that you have here, but also just the power, the. Yes, he's. He is also a lord, but because of where things fall, his. His rank is a little bit lower and station, you know, he got the. I guess he got the. The province that basically is just over. All he does is just overlook the water. He doesn't really have any, like, major things going on. So it, was really cool, you know, hearing that, set up as far as their relationship. And we already knew that was they had. They hadn't really weren't close and.

Will: And.

Will: And to how things unfold in this episode. You know, it was a fun episode to watch. There's a lot, you know, all the action and stuff, especially given how things at the end of last week with the whole crimson sky thinking it's going to be, we're going to have the conflict and stuff. And really, all that pretty much didn't really happen until action wise and really until the end of the episode. So, those are some of my initial thoughts about him as a character.

Sarah : So I'm confused. Did I miss something? Did they explain in the episode that both of them come from courtesans?

Will: This, is something I picked up from, the official podcast.

Sarah : Okay. Okay. Okay. I was. I was just sitting here. Like, I did not understand that at all.

Will: Yeah, no, no. But. But it did. Well, as I noted before, as I was watching it, I was thinking, like, you know, yes, they're both lords, but why is tornado like, you know, you know, there were things at. When they first meet there in the woods and, you know, and. And sake, like, talks about the lack of action that he's seeing in his fiefdom versus what tornaga is dealing with, with things going on, there in Edo and Izu, where, yabashige has, land. I just started thinking about all the ranks in our discussion last week. And then, like I said, as I was listening to the. The, official podcast, and they were talking about, the family dynamic and all, how that just really helped us reinforce my gut feelings and confirmed why the power structure is set up the way that it is within the family.

Will: Right. But also.

Will: Yeah, yeah, right.

Sarah : Okay.

Will: Yeah.

Will: And also color some things that we'll get to in a bit as far as, like, what was going on at the dinner before. Before the big. Before the big reveal there, the Lando Calrissian moment.

Sarah : Well, I don't want to, like, delay that. You always do this. You're like, we're gonna get to that.

I want to hear your thoughts on this week's Shogun 2 episode

Will: I want to hear your. I want to hear your thoughts, your initial thoughts on the episode before we go there.

Sarah : This episode is fine. I didn't think anything really stood out to me. This isn't. This. It's fine. I just, I'm still trying to articulate what I didn't like about this episode. and I listened. I didn't listen to the official podcast. I listened to Roka's podcast, and, his partner on that podcast that after show, is a book reader, and apparently this episode strays the most from the book. And, And he hated this episode.

Will: Well, yeah, you know, honestly, I've stopped listening to. I've stopped listening to them, just because I wanted to just sort of have just formulate my own opinions and stuff, not being a book reader. And also, you know, I think the. What I like about the official podcast, not to get into, like, let's talk about the episode. Not the podcast. About the podcast. But, they, just keep the counter just straight and just fill in the historical gaps and give some context for things that are transpiring to show. And also the official webpage for the show does that. A good job of that as well. So we recommend that to folks if you are. If you're looking for context or things to help help you, like, figure out some of the dynamics and stuff going on. The, Shogun companion website also has some really good things to help frame some of these things that are going on in the show.

Sarah : Right. So, yeah, so he didn't like this episode, and, he was articulating why and me not being a book reader, I found it very interesting because I'm like, I didn't read the books, so I didn't realize that none of this happened. But I walked away from the episode being like, oh, my God. Like, we're still stuck in the same situ. Like, we're. There was lack of progression overall in this episode for me. And, I think book readers approach this episode and just are mad about the use of Blackthorn. Me, a person who's never liked Blackthorn, I. I can't say it's because he. Of the use of him. I just, like, this is just classic storytelling. It's like, okay, we're building up to a big fight, and it looks like everything's going in favor of our hero, our main, like, tornaga. But now we have to basically take away his army. Like, put. Make sure his back is up, against the wall as we head into the third and final act. Like, you like, it's just. It was much more like, okay, I know he's going to get out of this. I don't know how he's going to get out of this. But I also just was like, cool, cool, cool. This. This feels like a filler. It feels like a filler.

Will: I completely. Yeah, this is gonna be fun tonight. Cause I completely disagree. I don't think this, but I think there was. There. I will. I will agree with you that as far as, like, no progression, I would agree with Mariko and Blackthorn. Things did seem kind of stagnant. They.

Sarah : See, I thought, one of the most interesting scenes in the episode.

Will: So, because that scene wasn't about.

Sarah : Them, it was about Bentaro. But everybody hates Bentaro for some reason. Because I just want to say, like, we got into a deep discussion about Bentaro and why he continues to not allow Mariko her one wish. And I think everyone should revisit that discussion based off of the scene in this episode where, again, he is faced with this situation where he wants to kill Blackthorn. Taranaga is like, I want both of these people to be alive, so I'm going to use your wife against you. And, he said, if Blackthorn dies, so does Mariko, because they are both a part of this affair that you are alluding to. And then Taro does not give in. He wants to, but he doesn't. And I think that is so interesting.

Will: Yeah, it is.

Will: It is.

Will: yeah, I mean, that those. That's definitely, definitely. I'm glad you brought that scene up. Cause it's definitely one that did stand out to me in, the episode. And, yeah, there was. You know, so when I say stagnation as far as them, I mean, it's more just like. It was just like, reinforced our discussion before and reinforced, like, the status quo of Black Thorn, the triangle there. as far as him wanting to kill Black Thorn, Tornado is forbidding it, and Mariko wants to end things, but Toranaga is not allowing it. So that's what I meant by it just felt like it was. That, to me, was where things did feel status quo. But other parts of the episode, I felt did progress things quite a bit.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Yeah, you can go on because I honestly am curious about, what parts in particular?

Will: Well, I mean. Well, since we did.

Toronaga needs help with his army after two regents resign

Since I did bring up the dinner, I mean, I think the dinner with, the,

Will: As I.

Will: As I joke, the Lando Calrissian moment, because, you know, the tornado goes to his half brother, like, Han Solo goes to bespin looking for, looking for refuge from the circumstances that they're under. And in this case, Toranaga. His army's decimated. He needs help to do this crimson, crimson sky plan. And so he goes to his brother, and of course, his brother, unbeknownst to Toronaga, sees now that there's, like, two vacancies on the. On the council of regents, due to tornadoes, you know, resigning. And then, of course, the other regent getting killed in last week's episode.

Will: you know, sake, like, sees the seize just a moment to. To basically one up his half brother and gains a foothold on the. On the council, gets a scene on the council and. And carry out. Carries out the mission of getting this impeachment done. So, you know, so even though it seemed like things were kind of hitting a. Hitting a wall and tornado is always figuring out ways out of things, he. This is that moment where it was just like, oh, instead of tornado always being one step of a. First of, What's going on? This was the first time, I think I felt in this series where he really doesn't know. He's not one step ahead of everybody else as far as right.

Sarah : I mean, that's fair. I think that was the whole intention of this episode. I mean, again, like I said before, it's about the purpose is to make sure that the viewers believe that there is no way out of this. The back is up against the wall, everything. Like, all the plans, plan a, b, and c are a no go. So it makes sense. I mean, black thorn's gonna do something that's gonna help lead to victory, whatever. so I guess I just. I understand what you're saying. I just feel like his. His army. I keep having to remind myself when the earthquake happened, I feel like it's been four episodes and maybe it's been three episodes, but I'm just like, what is time right now? How long have we been here?

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Yeah. So it just. It felt more like, okay, we're. You're. You're still trying to figure out your way out of this situation, because he. He, like, the. Going to the half brother was a last ditch effort, so he kind of didn't want to do that because he kind of knew. So there's a part of me that. I mean, I think Gia said it, or Jin from the Willow world said it, even to Toron Aga and implied it. Like, he invited his brother here, knowing their relationship, knowing what's going on with the council. He's too smart to not think about that being the outcome. So it just. I don't know. I. I don't buy that. Everything completely took him by surprise, so.

Will: Well, and maybe it didn't take him by surprise, but maybe. But he did seem.

I think this episode was a filler, but it progressed significantly

I'm glad you brought up Jim, because I wanted to talk about that conversation next. it did seem at this point, and he was kind of resigned to his fate after sake did pull the power play there and at the dinner and, you know, handed him the impeachment papers and also the execution work for, nagato. Yeah.

Sarah : But we've seen him resign to his fate in earlier episodes before they even left Osaka. Like, he's like, yeah, I'm just going to chill here. You all are going to leave. And then he snuck his way out.

Will: Yeah, but see, this time he didn't sneak his way out.

Sarah : He's just like, okay, we don't know that yet. Will we see, like, we have not watched the next episode. We don't know. What I'm saying, though, is like, yeah, he seemed more resigned, but I think it's all for show. I'm not buying it. I'm not not buying it fully because the man has proven, like, done the stoicness before and yet still had a plan b up his, up his sleeve. And, and, and he still, at the end of the day, Tornado still knows Blackthorn and his cannons are the Joker cards up his sleeve. Yeah, that, like, crimson sky or not, they, they still, he still has some pieces, to move around this board. So I just, I guess it just to me, when I say there was a lack of movement, I understand how the episode connects from the previous one to this one and where the characters are and the purpose of this episode. I just feel like it was kind of like a filler where I'm just like, okay, well, now we have to get here where all hope is lost so that we can uprise and get victory.

Will: Yeah, see, I think fillers. I see your point. I think fillers and, ah, maybe it's just because when I hear filler, I just take that as such an, as a negative connotation with, with an episode or something, else. I mean, it's not like thinking back to our arrivers days where we had like the Flash filler where it's just like just a junk episode where there's like a bottle show where they're just trying to get through. I don't, I don't feel like this. This was, this was not, to me, at least in my definition of a filler, I didn't feel like. I don't think it was a filler episode. I mean, I think it progressed things significantly. Even foreshadowing in some respect to getting back to are cop with Jen and Tornaga. I'm glad you mentioned that because they, you're right. I mean, Tornado and even Jen are both long term thinkers. I mean, with Jen, with her proposal to him, with wanting to set up a district in Edo to, you know, and, you know, it is foreshadowing that that does lead to the. To the geishas down the line. I mean, because her corsons are the forerunners of that. ito basically is the precursor to Tokyo. so I see that that's where I was. Just, like, there's things going that, are happening here that are moving the story forward. And even Tornaga does that whenever he's preparing for whatever eventuality is going to come his way, you know, he makes sure he sets aside the land for her and all that kind of stuff. So things, to me, it was like things were progressing, right?

Sarah : So I guess so, I mean, historically, I'm just going to move on to the.

Did Jin know about Jinn's plan and will she receive a punishment next episode

To the final point about the willow world, because I thought it was strange. Well, I don't know how to explain this point, but. So Tornaga writes Jinn into her will, but this is before his son decides to try to kill his uncle in the Willow world. and so then the question is, did Jin know about this plan and will she receive a punishment in the next episode?

Will: I don't think so.

Will: No.

Will: I was gonna say, I think the courtesan now is now Kuki knew. I think she knew it was one down. But I don't. I don't think, I don't think. I mean, the only thing Jen made m. I mean, I guess to your point, Jen might have known something was going down because she did adjust her fee for, Lady Kiku down so that she could have that conversation with Toronto. So that's where the whole stick of time comes from, is.

Sarah : Yeah.

Will: Yeah.

Will: So maybe that to the. To your point, I mean, maybe she, you know, she. From their conversation, maybe she was like. And they both have done this, like, even with Kiku. Like, I think she said things to ami, and to. Or maybe Gia said things to Ami in the past, too, to sort of put plant seeds in people's minds about stuff. So maybe. Yeah, maybe that there is. I could give you that.

Will: Right?

Sarah : Yeah, I guess I'm not sure what you're. What you're. I'm, like, glad that you're agreeing with me, but at the same time, I'm like, I don't know if we're actually agreeing about the same thing.

Will: Well, no, I agree with you that she may have known what was going on. I just, But I think, I think fundamentally, we both are. I think we're at odds in that, whether or not. And what I was saying to you was, I don't feel that this was a filler episode.

Will: No, no.

Sarah : I know. We're back there.

Will: Yes, Sarah. I know.

Sarah : Use the word filler again. My God. I get it. Okay. Okay. Since this is not a filler episode, I retract my statement. Good lord. Talk about.

Are people questioning if Nagadaru is still alive? I've seen some speculation

Because I have, like, I just wanted to talk about the end, the middle. So, anything else about this episode?

Sarah : I'm losing. I'm losing track here about where we're going.

Will: No, it's not. I mean. I mean, I think we hit most of the major points.

Will: in a roundabout way. I mean, other than, do you think that, Nagadaru is dead? Or do you think he. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah : Was that. Was that, like, did. Are people questioning if he's still alive?

Will: I've seen some stuff out there. Yeah, I've seen some. Yeah, I've seen some stuff out there. But yeah, I think he sees a goner.

Sarah : We actually witnessed him dying. This was no bun taro.

Will: Okay.

Will: Maybe that's why people are like, maybe he's still. Maybe there's a chance.

Sarah : Oh, you guys are not playing the same rules anymore. okay, are you sure that there's nothing else? Because you really enjoyed this episode. So I just want to make sure you get all of your points out there.

Will: I mean. I mean, I guess as far as yabushige, I mean, he had. He's still the, mvp of the show when he has these moments. Especially, like, with black boring and stuff this week. But, you know, and also, you know, he still. The disrespect the poor guy has. I mean, Tornado, his half brother, like, is asking for Izu, and they're like, oh, yeah, you can have it just keeps getting shit on.

Sarah : Well, he. He is, Is a rat of some sort. So, yeah, makes sense.

Will: But, No, no, like I said, I think. Yeah, I think this is definitely, you know, I know sometimes we'll have weeks where one, of us is. Feels an episode better than the other. And I think, this is definitely one of those weeks.

Sarah : Yeah. I mean, I always enjoy talking, through those points. And sometimes you convince me, but you, so far, you have not convinced me of anything.

Will: Yeah.

Will: wasn't trying to.

Sarah : No, I think you were. I think you always are. but hey, maybe. Maybe you swayed some of our listeners who might have started on the beginning, on my side, on the beginning. But, No, this is still a good show. I'm not saying it's a bad show. It's just, at the end of the day, this episode was nowhere near one of my favorites. I think one of my problems is that I think in the first few episodes, there was, infighting happening, and then there was also the larger picture about the world at the time in Spain and all of these other countries. And I really thought that was fascinating. But since leaving Osaka, we've gotten very little of the Spanish, and their role in all of this politicking. So. So that kind of lost some steam there for me. But,

Will: Yeah, no, yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. We haven't seen the Portuguese much, and I think maybe that's. Maybe some people. Why, as you were noting, With folks feeling like black thorn maybe getting sideline or whatever, that. That bigger picture as far as it's getting so insular, I guess, is, what sounds like what you're saying. And. And the larger. How this plays out in the larger world is. Is. Definitely. Has receded some over the last few episodes.

Sarah : Right. Right. I. And. But at the same time, I understand why. Ah, like, it's not. Not making sense. It just. They're not telling the stories the way I would want them to in a way.

Sarah : Or the way that really intrigues me.

Will: So.

Episode three of The Walking Dead answered many questions from the first two episodes

Sarah : So on that note, we move to episode three of, three. Body problem, destroyer of worlds. Obsessed with their virtual reality quest, Jin and Jack raced to solve a complex riddle by. But advancing to the next level brings harrowing consequences. Will, what did you think about this episode?

Will: Actually, I want you to go first this time.

Sarah : So a few things about this episode, and, I'm sorry for the stream of consciousness that is about to occur, but when we're talking a show like this, I don't know. I don't know. So I found it interesting to watch. I'm so glad that these two episodes we watched back to back.

Will: I agree.

Sarah : they answered a lot. A lot of questions from the first two episodes. Almost too many questions, in my opinion. So, basically, this episode is mainly about the game, which will was correct that it was what's, his face. Evans is behind the game. we learned about that. Not a lot of flashbacks in these two episodes. Just FYI. Not a lot of flashbacks. especially in this episode. I don't think there's a single flashback in this episode. so we learned that Evans is behind the game. We learn that this, killed me. I felt so bad for you, because if anybody listened to us talk about the first two episodes, will had a theory about why this was called three body problem. And, and in this episode, it was explained that it's called three body problem because in the game, there's a three body problem, which is basically where three bodies, it's. You can't predict what's going to happen in space when there are three bodies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like a three star system, which, which it's. Until it's, it's. Then, I think by the end of it, after they, they figured that out, Jin figures that out. And then they advanced to level four. And then they meet, creepy girl. so they meet her, and then she explains that the game portrays what actually is happening to the aliens who, Wenji in China all those years ago, basically told them to come. And here's the coordinates to our earth, because their earth, their planet, what are the aliens called? The Saiti.

Will: Santi.

Sarah : Santi are in on a planet that is essentially being played out in this game. And so they make this communication with Wenjie, who invites them, to our planet. Now, here's my thing. And I'm sure I probably, I don't think I went too deep. I don't think I went at all into the next episode. But in the next episode, it is explained that it'll take them 400 years to get here. And at that point, I immediately thought to myself, I'm like, why is this so urgent that we figure this stuff out? We got 400 years. What's with. I have a lot of questions about why scientists are dying and all this, but like I said, they answered some, almost too many questions for me. But at the same time, there's still, like, some where it's like, wait, what's happening?

This episode really explained the science behind the Santee game

so will, on that note, what did you think about the whole explanation about the game, the santee, and, them basically killing your least favorite character?

Will: So as far as. Yeah, so if you, if you like the game, aspect of the first two episodes, this episode was definitely for you. and I did like the games and, but also, but also I think it did the right thing by ending the levels, you know, because I was beginning to wonder, like, you know, are we going to get a whole season of, like, you know, we're going to keep leveling up and leveling up and leveling up. And in this episode, they're like, whenever we do learn that, we get to level four. And basically that was like your invitation to whatever the group of Santee, cult followers are. You know, I don't think they've given him a name yet. but, so we had resolution. So I was like, okay, fair enough. no more. You know, we. We learned, you know, they get confirmation to our theory last week that Evans was behind the game. And, you know, as far as the three body problem thing, what I was. Well, I was going to get into the science about that last week, and I think I touched on it some, which, they did. But they did really flesh it out and explain it. you know, I know they mentioned it in episode two last week with the sun, Jupiter and Earth, using Jupiter as an, you know, using the sun as an antenna to, like, magnify the signal that Wenjie, you know, ended up doing. but then this week, they, you know, they really got into it, you know, got into the whole classic physics, newtonian physics of what, you know, the scientific explanation of what it is. But also, you know, in the context of the game, as far as when Jen and Jack, you know, really learned what the true purpose of the game was, which was, you know, and, you know, we've gotten sprinkles of it where they were, you know, where they were really exploring, you know, what's stronger? Is it mysticism, religion? Or is science, you know, as far as these challenges within the game, and then once they figure out what the true motivations of the game was and the purpose for it, I agree with you that it was really good to watch three and four together because they definitely complemented each other. watching these two as a unit.

Sarah : Right, right. I still. Because I still.

I mean, the winjay's daughter, Vera, dies, and

I mean, the winjay's daughter, Vera, dies, and, she kills herself. It's very clear. She kills herself. and she talks about God. Now, we're still not sure, because here's what I'm trying to get at.

Will: Yeah. Okay.

Sarah : Hear me out. When Jay gives the headset to Jin, and he tells her, Vera has been obsessed with this game. I don't know where it came from. Blah, blah, blah, lie, lie, lie.

Will: Right.

Sarah : And. And just invites her. Now, we also know that Jack can't wear that headset because he wasn't invited. Yeah, I don't think Vera was playing that game.

Will: I agree. Especially when we saw whenever Auggie tried the game, and she got the same, you know, same results that Jack did.

Sarah : Right, right.

Will: It just.

Sarah : It doesn't. It. I think Jack couldn't play the game until he actually received one. And I keep thinking about the way Vera died. I m don't, It seems like with the game, because they're being recruited, they're being sussed out through the game to join this culture. And. And, And then if. If they fail, and especially if they fail, well, in Jack's case, especially if they learn really what's going on here, well, then you got to go. And so they, they send Tatiana after your ass and. And she kills you. And despite being watched by the police abled Clarence. I just. I love how they show. Like, in the fourth episode, I kept thinking about how Clarence was right outside Jack's house as he's brutally murdered. And then he's. He's sitting there telling Jen, but don't worry, I'll be right outside. You're gonna be fine. Like, where were you when Jim. Let's just go back there.

Vera goes through what Auggie went through with the countdown

so, so anyways, so with Vera, I feel like she was going through what Auggie went through with the countdown, which we. Augie is. Has a very small part in these two episodes, which I found interesting. It was much more focused on Jin and Jack in the game, because with Augie, we do see her turn back on her. Her work, and immediately the countdown resumes, and so she shuts it down again. Like, this isn't something like she can step away from and then return to. No, she. Somehow she's been, tied to this thing. and so, and so, anyway, I just. I just felt like bringing that up about us.

Will: No, that's a good point, because especially with all these scientists. I mean, there's another 32 have died in the past few months. M. and we're seeing, you know, and Vera was one, and then now we're seeing it with Auggie and I guess. And I know we'll probably learn more about why this is happening, you know, and. And thinking about, like with you made a great point about Jen and win, Jay lying to Jen about the game. And then later, when she's. When Jen is being recruited, they, like, used sort of similar parallels as far as. Between Wen, Jay and Jen, as far as losing their fathers, you know, losing their family.

Will: you know, at least, you know, granted, Winjay lost her dad, you know, in a. In the cultural revolution, but Jen, losing her family and, you know, through floods, but just trying to find that, you know, that I guess that kindred common bond of. Of loss. And I don't think.

Sarah : I don't think it's trying to find that. It's trying to find a weakness and a point of manipulation.

Will: Yeah.

Will: And that's where I was going with that, is that they use that. They figured she was susceptible to being in this movement. And I guess they thought Jack was too, but they miscalculated with him and.

Sarah : No, sorry. I was just gonna say, I don't think they miscalculated. I think they knew all along.

Will: So. And I guess. And I bring that up because, I'm just trying to figure out, like, with these 32 now, Jack, you know, now the Oxford five has become the Oxford four, and maybe three, depending on if we lose will or not this season.

Will: Is.

Will: Is Asante behind this or behind what? Behind these scientists deaths or,

Will: Or.

Will: Well, maybe not directly behind it, but I guess. I guess Evans and Wenj are just because they're maybe a threat to, like, their goals.

Sarah : M right. Right. We still. We have barely.

Evans: The Sante are 400 years away from arriving officially

And this is actually a good segue to get into the. The big parts of episode four. Our lord, I think, to your point, maybe not directly connected to the Sante, of course, because they're 400 years away from arriving officially, but at the same time. Time, they have been able to provide some sort of technology, some sort of thing, because you got Tatiana walking all over the place and then erasing, CCTV footage. So there's clearly been a transference of technology, at the least up to Evans and Wenjie, that allows them to, use that in terms of protection. and there's been enough of it over the years where we see Wenjie basically tell them, like, you're only, like, I'm only here talking to you, because they're allowing that to happen. I found it very interesting, the subtle. Now, I'm going to say this while at the same time, considering this episode is called our Lord. Like, so far in the first four episodes, they have been toying with religious motifs and metaphors. I just hope that in the next four episodes, they don't go overboard. Like. Like, I just. I mean, they kind of are starting to. I mean, the fact that the ship, the oil rig that the whole cult basically lives on is called judgment Day. I'm like, really?

Will: Really?

Sarah : But it's also. I mean, besides this transference of technology we learn at the end of episode three and throughout episode four, is that Evans, he's. He's. He prides himself on reading stories to the Lord. And, he started with Hansel and Gretel, and then he made the awful mistake of reading Red Riding Hood. And, And initially with Hansel and Gretel, our Lord, who's. Who's the same voice. The voice that he hears, from the Sante is the same voice that is heard in the game itself.

Will: Yep.

Sarah : The female voice. And, in response to her questions about Hansel and Gretel, he explains, that humans have a lack of fear. And then she goes on and says, a lack of fear leads to distinction. Humanity must learn to fear again. And just when he thought it was dark, then it gets a bit darker. As. As he. I don't know why Evans thought this was a good idea. Like, I'm just gonna go ahead and explain to them what lying means and admits that I lie sometimes, too. Oh, wait. Humans lie. It's a trait we don't understand. What do you mean? What is this concept of lying? To deceive.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Oh, my God.

Will: Oh, God. Yeah, that one through.

Sarah : Well, they are 400 years away from getting here.

Will: 400 years away. But somehow. But they have the technology to, like, talk to the, you know, the Lord can talk to us instantaneously, and they could create these games and.

Sarah : Yeah, but it has been. I mean, it took six years for Wenjie to get a response from her first message. So since then, the communication, I'll buy. I do agree with you. They will. Why do you have all this technology if they're not here yet? And it's also going to take them so long to get here? And also, why are so many scientists dying now, even though it's going to take years for them to get here?

Will: Like, maybe, maybe the santee are, like, killing these science, you know, because, like, for example, auggies work. I mean, we saw like, this, not this microfiber. They're, they fit there.

Will: It's a threat.

Will: I mean, because by the time they get here, they, you know, whereas now we're just little, you know, we're just. We're sheep.

Sarah : Oh, I totally understand.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Why.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : I just don't quite get how.

Will: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, I get that. I do get some of the how, but I think it gets to what, you know, the. Some of the fear element, that you're the. That the santi were trying to get across to Evans there, that the humans must learn to fear again. because I guess it gets into that whole thing looking through the eyes of God and the religion element, like you noted, they are essentially God. They're doing these things maybe to kill these scientists and stuff, to just one, keep the people who are doing all these, masterful things as physics and metallurgy and all these things and science from keep, you know, basically help keep. Keep human humanity in their place.

Sarah : So maybe. But they also don't seem to understand a lot about humanity as we're learning through Evans. And he's been telling them these stories. So I don't, I don't think it's the Santi who are necessarily like saying, oh, these guys have to go because they're going to be a threat and all that. I view it more as Wen J and Evans who have identified these scientists as being the threat. They communicate that to them. And then through some mechanism that I'm sure we're going to get the answer to within the next two episodes, they receive the technology that allows them to protect and to minimize scientists scientific advancement. which, but then.

Questions arise about whether Wenjie and Evans had a child

Will: Yeah, well, yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up. And I thought about the first episode. It goes back to that first, that moment when she is like sitting there and she's pondering whether or not to hit send on that message because, you know, because of, because of all the things that she has been through up to that point and her feelings about humanity. And then you think about Evans, whereas whenever they, in this episode, we, you know, we see how they reconnect. You know, of course, when we first meet Evans, you know, he's the young idealist who just happens to have an old tycoon for her father. and then fast, you know, they meet in the eighties and now he's the old tycoon and he, you know, he's like, yeah, I'm, I'm still, I'm still the billy, I'm a billionaire, but I'm a billionaire who, who's going to do right with his money and still have, I'm still that idealist you met who wanted to build the trees in the forest and stuff.

Will: But at the same time, you're doing.

Will: All these other things that I guess trying to be a benevolent baron. But I mean, those things are kind of like oxymoron.

Sarah : Well, they, both of them, Evans, we don't, we don't fully know because we've spent way more time with Wenjie, especially in her past. And what led her to push send. and she at that point was like, well, f you guys, I know how to use this technology. I'm going to use it. I'm going to take the side of them because they're going to wipe your asses out. Like, fuck you. And then personally, I just think she wanted to, like, fuck Evans. So she.

Will: Well, they do. I mean, you know, whenever they started, whenever they kissed, I was like, oh, so I guess this is Vera's father.

Sarah : Well, see, I still question that just, Because he didn't stay at the funeral. And also, Wade didn't know about. Wade didn't know, really, the connection between Evans, at least from what I understood from the first episode, that at the time, Wade did not understand the connection between Evans and Wenjie. Now, if Wade, who knows a lot so far about what's really going on.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : And also, it's like, okay, then why haven't you been killed yet? But whatever.

Sarah : Like. Like, for. For that to be. For him to be Vera's father. Like, that raises a lot more questions. Questions for me about, like, okay, so at what point did you guys start this investigation and learn all of this stuff and really go after Evans? because you apparently missed a few decades there.

Will: Well, yeah, and maybe. Yeah, and maybe they did. Well, yeah, I figured because they did lose connection with one another.

Sarah : And, then also, why wasn't Vera on the boat if, like, just hear me out. If Wenj and Evans had a love child?

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Let's go. Fan fiction on, this. Why weren't. Why wasn't that child brought up on the boy on the boat? On the oil rig?

Will: Yeah.

Will: That's where you just blew my theory up out.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Yeah. I mean, it doesn't make. It wouldn't.

Will: It'll.

Sarah : It'll take a lot of explanation to make that work. I mean, they could because they. They wanted. I don't know. But it is. Yeah. So we'll learn more.

Will: Yeah, but. But clearly, regardless of whether they had a child or not, I mean, she. There is a relate. There was a. There was a bond in a relationship there where when they. Whenever they did meet up in the eighties, she confided it to him.

Will: Here's what I heard. Yeah. He.

Will: And he took it and ran with it and, you know, and got the judgment day boat because, you know, we later see them because the tower in China is no longer there. The communications tower is gone, but he finances the radar, you know, the antenna, the judgment days boat is there. They to.

You know, one of the things they are, you know, recruiting in this fourth episode

You know, one of the things they are, you know, that we do see in this fourth episode is, you know, they are recruiting the chosen ones to, your religious element of this. I mean, they do kind of see themselves as the chosen ones. And it's.

Sarah : Yeah, they're their protectors.

Will: And they're the protector. So, you know, the fuck the rest of these people. But, you know, so all these folks on the end, like, you know, with the little girl. I mean, with, you know, your point about. And the fondness of telling stories. I mean, she, you know, he does the same thing to the little girl, you know, on the boat. And also, it's just like, okay, I see where these connect. I'm seeing all these different pieces of the puzzle are all starting to converge into one singular story here, which is, you know, Wen Jay is the mastermind behind all of this. And in Evans is the financer, who also believes in this. and you're right. I mean, wait. Wade and Clarence definitely miss some elements in particular, as far as, you know, piecing these together whenever, Whenever he is. When they confront her at the end of episode four, after the arrest.

Sarah : So to speak, about the arrest, because, Jin, essentially, at the end of episode three, gets invited to advance to the fourth level, which is going to this orientation, this gathering of sorts, in which the founder is there, who turns out to be Wen jie. And then, of course, everything kind of goes to shit, as the police invade and arrests happen, Tatiana escapes magically, even though she does end up. End up, shooting Jin, and Jin getting injured. Not dead, injured. but why do you think that that happened? Because when Jay has the line that I said before where, like, this only happened because our lord allowed it to happen. So. So where do you fall? Are you. Are you on the side that. Yeah, they. The Santi are in the know about that being a possibility, or are they also just like, well, f. You guys. You guys are a bunch of liars. We're coming.

Will: I think they're coming. You know, I think Evans miscalculated in the sense that he.

Will: He.

Will: When he told the story about the liars and the Santi were like, we can't trust.

Will: Liars.

Will: We're afraid of you. Communications ended.

Will: He, you know, he. He was. He was.

Will: He was treating them like. Like he was just treating another human being and didn't think that this. The tantee has their own system of ethics and morals and code. and like you said earlier, it's like, how could we expect these aliens to understand our human concepts of deceit and light? so I think that was.

Will: A.

Will: Miscalculation on his part, whether or not, you know, what. What Wenjay was saying there. This is our lord's will. It just sounds like. It just sounds like, you know, any kind of, you know, you're running a mill cult leader who is so wrapped up in their. In their rightness of their worldview, that whether or not that's true or not, she believes that.

Will: Right?

Sarah : Right. No, I think, ah, I think both almost can be true. I think, in a weird way, she's not wrong. I don't know at what time that conversation, between the Santi and Evans ended and her speech got interrupted. So I don't know if he relayed, like, oh, our Lord. Like, we're on the bad side. We got to fix this.

Will: This.

Sarah : I don't know if that was, like, when Jay understood that that had happened at this point. so hopefully we'll get some sense about the timeline of when those two events occurred, because they could have occurred simultaneously, for all we know.

Will: I took it.

Will: That's the way I took it, that these things were happening real time together.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Oddly enough, I think we did a good job about going over the final point.

Where do you think Saul is in all of this?

I want to touch on, because I don't. I don't. I feel like he's kind of. He's kind of someone who definitely has a part to play, but I haven't seen too much of him. But where do you think Saul is in all of this? Because I know he has that relationship with Augie and, and he's honestly the first one, I think, of the Oxford five we technically meet. And, yeah, he's kind of there understanding things, but also not. And so I'm just. It's, Do you think that he'll be used more in later episodes or, like, what we've currently are got receiving of him?

Sarah : It'll stay about the same.

Will: I think we'll see more of him. I think he's the wild card here. because if I recall, whenever they had the game, he was. He didn't really. It was episode three. Did he like, was he first reticent to, like, explore the tech behind the game or. Like I said, I watched it earlier in the week, too, so I could add that detail.

Will: I can't remember that detail.

Sarah : He, He agreed with Augie.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : That they should never play again.

Will: Yes. That's.

Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I was thinking of.

Will: Yeah.

Will: So with that being said, I mean, I think Saul and Augie dancer. Question about Saul. Yes, I think he's going to be more of a player down the line. He's sort of. He's sort of that bridge character who like, you know, he was there when Auggie saw the sky blink. And, and, you know, he was with Will when they were going through Jack's things. And, and so he's sort of that. He's sort of that thread. He's sort of like us. he's the. He's the guy in the story, and he's watching things unfold. And like us as the audience member, Auggie, I don't know. I'm just not feeling Auggie. Auggie and will are still two characters where I'm sort of like, as far as the Oxford. Oxford four now. where I'm just kind of like, I could take them or leave them.

Sarah : I like Augie.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah : Yeah, yeah, I like her. so far, so, I technically like all of Oxford five, honestly. Will is the least, but he's dealing with cancer, and it just seems so bizarrely different from what everyone else is dealing with. And then that you have Saul, who's not really been touched by any of this so far, except that his. His friend died, so. And Vera died, so.

Will: Yeah. Yeah.

Will: And also to. Also with Saul, he and he and Augie have a very conflicted comp come. It's complicated as far as their relationship status.

Sarah : Right, right.

Will: Yeah.

Will: Ah.

Please rate, follow, and comment on our podcast on various platforms

Sarah : All right, well, that leads us, brings us to the end of this. We will return next week, with the next two episodes. Will, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you?

Will: Yes, you can find me on X, formally known as Twitter.

Will: Ah.

Will: Willmpolk.

Sarah : And you can find me there, too, at sjbelmont. S j b e l m m o n t please follow our crew on Twitter sana nerdfront us on Facebook, follow us on Instagram and threadsina scene, underscore n nerd, and visit our website, www.sceneanerdpodcast.com. But most importantly, rate, follow, and comment on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcast.

Will: Good night.

Sarah : Geek out. You're welcome.