>> Sarah : Greetings, nerds. This is Scene N nerd. I'm your host, Sarah Belmont, and with me, as always, is our Mr. Producer, will Polk. How are you doing tonight, will?

>> Will: Doing very well, sir. How you doing this evening?

>> Sarah : Well, you've already managed to surprise me, because during pre show talk, when we normally do not talk about what we're going to talk about, you spilled some tea, and so now I'm just interesting.

>> Will: Yeah, but I could have been doing a headfake, too.

>> Sarah : I think I've talked to you long enough to know when you're pulling a head fake, there's some tells. I hear your voice on a regular basis.

>> Will: True.

>> Sarah : Yeah.

>> Will: After seven years of doing this, we kind of know. Yeah. There are some things where if we were to play a game of poker, it would be hard to bluff one another, right?

>> Sarah : Definitely. talking about bluffing and playing poker, House of Dragon dropped a trailer. Actually, it was two, because there was the green side trailer and the black side trailer, which wasn't. Nobody was expecting that, right? Everyone kept saying, the trailer is coming. So when I looked, I'm like, oh, there's two of them. now, I appreciate that. However, I think the tagline all must choose is stupid, and here's why. Who the heck is on Team Green? a fan that watched the first season that is legitimately on Team Green. And yes, I get it. We got some incest happening on team black. M, if you're on Team Green, then I need to understand you. And in my opinion, that means you did not like viserys at all. And if that is the case, then why are you watching the show?

>> Will: Amen. Yeah, seriously, though, if anybody is on Team Green, please, on our socials, if you listen to us on YouTube, drop a comment. yeah, make the case for Team Green, because to your point about the trailers, just brilliant marketing. Just effing brilliant. As far as just. Even though I agree with you, the tagline is a little like, okay, we got hyping it up. It was smart. They dropped the posters and stuff yesterday and, sort of set the stage. I know we had the little teaser trailer back late last year, but, the two trailers, and we got the release date too, which is June 16.

>> Will: And so it really set, really, as I was watching the trailers again the night before we were recording, it really just like, oh, yeah. It just does a great job of just framing the conflict between the two and, like, the team green trailer, just remembering how, speaking of Viserys and Alicent, like, hearing what she wanted to hear whatever he said, aegon. And then of course, on the team black, just, Renera and Damon. I can't wait for June. This is one of those series I didn't watch, Game of Thrones. So I was new to the universe and the franchise and I'm 100% on board with this show. I don't think it's going to disappoint at all.

>> Sarah : So I'm going to be honest. Besides my thoughts about the, tagline being a bit lame, honestly, I watched both of them. I didn't like it. I felt like they told me, and I get it. They're trying to attract viewers who may not have watched the first season. Okay, whatever. But to me, I appreciate the first season trailers a lot more. There was just something about it where it felt, I don't know, there was not enough tension for me. And, there was a lot more fights and a lot more action sequences. And then when, team green, we get a few clips from them talking about Alison's point of view and everything, I'm just like, Olivia cook, where are you? You did great in season hitting. This isn't hitting the way I want it. So I'm still obsessed with this show. Don't get me wrong, I didn't need to watch the trailers to want to see the second season. by all means. But honestly, when I compare it to other trailers of things, I was a bit disappointed.

>> Will: I can see your point. And I think maybe it's, where we're coming from, as far as you're been in this longer than I have, as far as Game of Thrones stuff, I'm not saying that, to mean that you're like, having the carryover effect that many fans had, the way that that series ended. No more of, I just know you as far as how you react to things in trailers and stuff. To me, it just sounds like this just reinforces things that you already know.

>> Sarah : right. I guess where I can really articulate that, where my disappointment stems from is there was no scene or no part of either trailer where I was like, oh, I can't wait to see that. I can't wait to understand the context of this because I'm just like, okay, but at the same time, will, all I can hope for is that means they're holding things back.

>> Will: Yeah, exactly.

>> Sarah : Beggars can't be choosers. I'm fine. As long as they held back the right things, I am perfectly fine. I think I just want to make sure from my perspective, there's nothing wrong. For me saying, like, this trailer disappointed me. It has nothing to do with the show itself.

>> Will: Right?

>> Sarah : It's advertisement for that show, but I'm not going to hold it against it because I'm not going to watch these trailers, between now and when I actually sit down to watch the show. So I'm not going to hold on to like, oh, they showed that in the trailer? No.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : speaking about mixed review trailers, we got a few of them this week, but, Star wars acolyte trailer came out, and before it came out, it also dropped the poster. Now, will, please explain to me how can the poster be so much cooler than the trailer?

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : Did the person who designed the poster watch the trailer?

>> Will: I don't think so.

>> Will: Like House of the Dragon, this is one of those trailers. I knew the show. We finally did get confirmation that. As far as the release date, I think prior to the trailer and the poster, which is June 4, I mean, we knew it was coming in June, but I think, anyway, when I saw that poster and the lightsaber smeared with blood, I was just like, all what they've been saying about this show going in a different direction. We're going back to the high Republic. It is set 100 years before. Phantom. Ah, menace. It was supposed to be a thriller mystery, darker take on things. That poster, I was like, oh, yeah, it got me hyped. When I saw the trailer, it was okay, but I just felt like it was like, I don't know, I felt like it was just, a remix of what I've seen before. Especially when I watched it again tonight, before I had the initial reaction, I was like, okay, this is cool. But watching it again, and I was really watching it from a critical eye. I was like, this just feels like just a rehash of stuff that we've seen before. Yes, there's a Sith. Yes, it's the high Republic. They're new people. But it just like, I feel like I'm in the Skywalker saga again.

>> Sarah : Oh, right. It's because, what Star wars has been doing with their universe is they've been, instead of chronological order, there's like, different points of time and things are separated, and yet they even play into this idea. Oh. So during this time, the Sith were in charge. During this time, it was the Jedi. And then here's the story of how it flipped. And here's the story how it flipped back and back, and you're just like, I don't care if this is a hundred years before. You're telling me the same story essentially. Now, they could have done it a lot more. They could have been more creative with it because from m, I also understood this almost to be like the origin story of the dark side and really where it came from and how it disrupted everything and caused this battle that has now gone on for years.

>> Sarah : But they didn't sell it that way. They sold it more as like, okay, it just feels like more of the same. And yes, I always argue Star wars. For whatever reason, I've been in fatigue mode for a while now with their, am.

The one thing that got me though is the main actress in it

The one thing that got me though, is the main actress in it. I want to say her name is Amanda something. she's a pretty good actress. I've seen her in a few things. So I'm, I'm curious to see her. And I'm especially now that it's like she's going to be the dark side person. I was like, oh, that's interesting. But you didn't really hear her say anything, which is, again, more of the same. I'm so tired of the dark side being so quiet and I'm just like, no, you need more talkers.

>> Will: More talkers. Like Carrie m all showing up. I couldn't help but thinking of mean, it didn't do anything. It was just like, she's playing the same type of character and it's just know, go against type, or something. But the fights seem very still what we saw in Ahsoka when they had a lot of those dark scenes, where those lightsaber battles were underwhelming in many cases. and also we learned a runtime for these shows and it's eight episodes, 35 minutes. So if you're going to do it that short because we've seen enough of the Star wars shows now to, yeah, they just make a movie at this point.

>> Sarah : I think this show is going to get very similar criticism that Ahsoka got.

>> Sarah : Especially now that I understand the runtimes are pretty much the same.

>> Will: I think there's one, I think the showrunner said, she said maybe went 40, 35, 40 minutes. But that's just when a short runtime like that. But when things really are just really getting going in a story, it faced the black and I'm just like, it just makes it really hard. When I saw the poster, I was super hyped because I was like, oh, something fresh, something new, post trailer. I'm kind of on the fence. just going to hold judgment and see where it goes, I'll judge it. At least I didn't see a bunch of sand about you.

>> Sarah : It's interesting, as we talk about a universe that seems to just be on a downward trend, and can't figure out a way to reinvent itself. We're going to switch over and talk about the spiderverse, which continues to expand, and viewers have yet to get tired of, well, it's been announced that the spiderverse animated short called the spider within. A spider within is set to debut on YouTube on March 26. The short will focus on miles having a panic attack while dealing with pressures of being a teenager student and protecting the city. The short shares how Miles reaches out to get help for his mental health.

>> Will: yeah, I saw this today. the spider within a spiderverse stories the title and it's a project that actually, the Kevin Love foundation, fund is partnering, with Sony to do this. And Kevin love, for folks who follow NBA basketball, are probably very familiar with this story. He's a phenomenal player, but he's also been very open about his mental health challenges. And he is, one of the backers of this project. and they're also even going to do a companion piece with it, to help, a curriculum that can be there for teenagers and other folks, that will give people opportunity to really open up, show coping mechanisms, apparently. I think they're going to do like a creative storyboard. So that's interactive, so you can use it. And one of the things Kevin love mentioned that, we'll see in the series is miles as he's dealing with this panic attack and opening up to his father and showing how whenever we do have our mental health challenges, on don't. Not to clam up and keep it all inside. So it sounds like it's going to be a mix of both entertainment, but also going to be helpful, which I think is great. So I can't wait to see this on YouTube next week.

>> Sarah : Yeah, I like how they're not just doing it to keep Spiderverse on everyone's mind, but there's a message beneath it. so I can really appreciate that. And it's a good use of platform and to provide content. So put that on your calendars, people. we will probably be talking about it in the future. all right, so let's just get invincible out of the way because will doesn't want to talk about it.

>> Will: It's not that I don't want to talk about it. It's not that I don't want to talk about it. he doesn't want to continue talking about start. We're looking at three body problem as well coming up. Drops, tomorrow, right? Yeah, it's already here.

>> Sarah : It's already on Netflix.

>> Will: Okay. Yeah. so I was just trying to figure out which way to go, folks.

>> Sarah : Right. So we did watch, invincible season two, episode five. This must come as a shock, which is the first episode to drop of the second half of the second season. so I watched this on Sunday, and I will be honest, I actually was pretty engaged, because they did a pretty good job of reminding me things that happened, during, the fourth episode, as well as starting to talk about, like, okay, well, where could these characters potentially go from there? I can appreciate that. Mark had to take home his baby, to. To then become a single father, basically, much to. So. But then it lost me during the third act fight sequences that were going on and anything to do with, I want to say, the guardian stuff. I have not followed that storyline at all, so I never have any investment in it. But overall, I was just like, okay, I'm here for it. We'll just wrap it up. But, during our preshow discussion, we'll raise some points and it does sound like next week we'll be starting three body, one problem, and we may or may not ever finish season two of, invincible.

>> Will: think about this, folks, though, while we talk about episode five, though, because maybe I agree with you. I did like the return, of the show. Both the season premiere as well as the midseason return. Both had Mark jacked up, getting beat up from his father, and then again with the Viltrumites at the end of the, first half of the second season. But I like the way that they turned the narrative this time around instead of Mark being beat down and how he responded after what happened at the end of the season. Now, as you noted, he's on Thraxon and learning about his brother, half brother, also helping the society rebuild. He has a purpose to the point that he actually lost. It ended up being like two months that he was, think. I think Nolan, after being taken away, wanted Mark to read the books and stuff. I think Mark started to understand where Nolan was coming from and why he goes from planet to planet, like, basically siren kids.

>> Sarah : M.

>> Will: but, yeah, I thought it was a good. You're right. It was engaging the stuff, too, where we found out what was truly going on with Donald. I like that story because I know we were both wondering what was going on with him in the first half of the season. so those are all cool things I did like about it. the Guardian story. I was like, you as just. These characters just don't resonate with me at all. So I think that's where some of my reticence and where I feel like the show gets uneven at times is just like, if it just solely focused on Mark and his things that are going on there. It's a solid show, but the other things, and I know it's an just those parts just don't rock with.

>> Sarah : It's never felt like an ensemble to me.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : If that was the intention, then they missed it because they really, from the first episode, made this about Mark and having, like, there's such a detachment between Mark and the Guardians that I don't feel like I'm watching a team show. So, granted, we have Adam Eve, who, because they did, those two episodes that were kind of part of the season, but not really. I understand her character a little bit more than I did during the first season, but they're not going to do that for every single character on the Guardians. And that's not really what you should have to do in order to understand characters. Part of the. I don't. I feel like they really need to figure out a way to make the Guardians more present in Mark's story for me to invest in them as.

>> Sarah : To, go back to, What was his name? You said name. No, Tom. How much I pay attention to the show because I wanted to say my joke. They made him into Cliff from Doom Patrol. Done. Anyway, so that was about Donald, and we talked about Mark becoming a single father to his half alien.

>> Sarah : There'S not really a lot that technically happened in this episode because it is the midseason return, and it's been so long since the fourth episode that they had to kind of explain, okay, so while Mark was here, he's going to come back to Earth and then basically see what went on with his mom while he was gone and what went on with his girlfriend,

>> Will: Who.

>> Sarah : I found to be really interesting because there's resentment that's building, and I'm waiting for that argument to happen and for that shoe to drop and for Mark to really start to understand Nolan's perspective as being not fully human. I don't think in the first season, that it's ever fully dawned on him what that means. and just because you have powers. Well, that's from a part of you that's from this other species, I think that they have a lot to explore. but at the same time, this release schedule has done no favors for this.

>> Will: No, no, it didn't. I agree with you that in particular with Amber, because she's. She's got her story. I don't know her mark, talking about the books, what she did with them, but, Amber, yeah, you're. That. That resentment is building. I mean, she's being supportive, but they're starting to see some cracks in the foundation there, with their relationship as far as being supportive. And I think you hit the nail on the head as far as Mark, really now on the second season, is really starting to understand what his father went, and especially after he saw from the consequences of it, not necessarily with earth, but with another planet, with the Viltrumites and what could happen to Earth, if he doesn't follow in Nolan's footsteps, as far as trying to protect these societies from the Viltramites mission of conquering everything. So those were some really good moments. And then I did like how they tied the first season story, with Shapesmith and the whole Martian, astronauts. those are the things I think it also does well as far as building on previous episodes and reminds you of, like, there is an overall arc and things that happened in the previous seasons does have impact on subsequent seasons. I did like that aspect of the story, this week as, when. But again, when Mark and the Guardians do finally get together, it's just like you said, it doesn't seem organic. It just seems like very.

>> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah. To go back to, his mom, what I was saying was more. Or what I saw was more about how during the first half of this season, we saw a lot from her, about essentially the grieving process of her husband, of the life that she once had. And now she's gone through two months without her son, who technically is the only tie left that she has to Nolan. and so I wonder if that allowed her some peace just because you love your child, but he is still part of Nolan and still tied to them in that. So when. Just because Nolan left doesn't mean that you're not shackled in some sort of way, because you have a kid together. And now, on top of it, she's presented with, oh, Nolan, when he went away, he went and he, got together with another woman and also reproduced. And so now you're also not only having to continue raising your own son, but also Nolan's half son. So I think that there is a very interesting angle to do with her character in terms of her trying to figure out what this means, especially as, she continues. I think she says something about this in the episode, like cleaning up Nolan's mess. Constantly. Constantly. I think they teased a lot of stuff, while at the same time, I'm like, no, don't do this to.

>> Will: Tease. I'm glad you brought that up about, Mark's mother, because I just felt like they did tease was, as you rightly noted, it's the first episode back after a break, so you don't want to get too deep into it. But it did set up, sort of the thread. Know, now that you have Nolan's child from another mother under your roof and Mark's asking you to help take care of it and that kind of thing. It definitely does set up some interesting plot points that they can pursue. Hopefully, they'll pursue them. Well, like they did with her when she was with the support group. I thought that was something that stood out for me in the first half of the second season.

>> Sarah : Yep. All right, well, that is a wrap on our discussion of, invincible, season two, episode five.

>> Will: Don't forget about Alan. Alan's back. I said, don't forget. Alan's back.

>> Sarah : I didn't forget. I was just on to the next show because it sounded like we were.

>> Will: Yeah. Yeah.

>> Sarah : all right, so that brings us to Shogun, episode five, broken to the fist. An IMDb summary says Blackthorn and Marico struggle to contain their secret that could get them both killed. Abu Shige searches for the spy who has betrayed his intentions to lord, Will.

>> Will: What did you think about this, episode? It's like, this was like. Well, I can't say every week this is my favorite, but this one really was really good this week. I, think it was just a very well rounded story. Tornaga shows back up to see the consequences of what his son had wrought with the canon attack. Blackthorn, the whole triangle. Blackthorn, Fuji, and Mariko. With the return of a certain person who you called it. You're right. Bentaro was, not dead.

>> Sarah : I can. Yeah, no, he's not dead. And I did say it. And then you question. You made me.

>> Will: Wrong. I was wrong. I will freely admit. I thought, that he was a goner. but they figured out he got some help from some Ronan, and he's back.

>> Sarah : Don't appreciate that we didn't. I feel like they took the easy way out of explaining how he's back. And I think it was easier to do that in the book, but visually, from, a television perspective or even from a movie perspective, it seems a bit far fetched.

>> Will: Yeah, well, I guess it was. It, however many Ronan that helped him out, but it took him 20 days to return, and only two of them survived or whatever. I guess it was a tell not show kind of situation with how he got back.

>> Sarah : It definitely was. It just bothered me because I guess there was nothing planted in that episode where he, quote unquote, dies, that would say, oh, he could survive because there are. Ronan over.

>> Will: Yeah. And I haven't read the book, and I want to say I was listening one recap from somewhere. I don't know if it was, Rogan and, Steve Miller. or another one where I think they switched that from the book. where I think in the book, he actually did commit honorable suicide there after he fall, off the invade. Well, actually, he fought him off, and then before he could get captured, he killed himself. so I think this may have been a change. So if any folks out there who've read the book can correct, please, please do so, because I haven't read it.

>> Sarah : It is because in a recap that I was listening to who? I was listening to Roka's recap, and his panelist is a book reader, and the way he talked about Bentoro and the events of this episode with Marico, those still happen.

>> Will: Okay.

>> Sarah : I don't think it was a change from the book. I think that it got confused because people were starting. Were talking about cultural implications of what could potentially, while. And I think a lot of the book readers are doing a good job while also holding back and letting people who have not read the books be surprised by the events of the series.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : but let's just be like. Will was surprised. I was not surprised because you weren't.

>> Will: No. I was sitting in the airport when I was watching the episode, and then when it popped up and he was back, I was like, all right, I made a note to give you your props. you got that one. And, I was wrong. The thing, too. Whenever he did return, it just really, Mariko's face, whenever she found out, and he's standing there, and hats off to Anna Sawai, who's, like, playing her, because the face acting in that moment was just on top. I mean, all the various emotions that I'm sure Marco was feeling just on full display there know, especially given that where the showrunner on the official podcast of the show did, confirm that, Blackthorn and Marco did sleep together. So you got this, and now he's back and all the things. Of course, then we learned that he's an abusive. We knew he was an abusive spouse, but then we saw it play out in this episode very deeply, and troubling. So, yeah, hats off to her as far as the way she conveyed what the character was feeling at that moment.

>> Sarah : So what do you make of the fact that we're given Marico's backstory in this episode, which has been hinted at in the first episodes and alluded to, and the shame that came to her family was because her father killed the, emperor that preceded, Teiko and assassinated him, not because he wanted the power, but because he knew that that ruler at the time was very corrupt. so then, because of rituals, honor and respect and everything, everyone immediately went after her family to kill them. her father ended up committing suicide. And this is where I'm like, can we get a little bit more context? Because she just so happens to end up marrying Buntaro before. I just want to understand the timeline because the way it keeps being explained, it sounds like he married her after the shame had happened. but that doesn't make sense to me of how she would be able to marry him after that all played out. So she ends up marrying him and, therefore gets protection, essentially. And she wants to kill herself to die with her family. And, every year on the anniversary of, her father's death, asks to commit suicide, and he orders her to live. Considering the abuse we saw displayed for. Mm, what do you make of him always making, her live?

>> Will: so that's a lot to unpack there. so as far as the shame that befell her house, the only thing I could figure, just looking at the whole learning, picking up the cues better than Blackthorne has, is she's christian. So I'm trying to figure out if that plays into the protection as far as if that. No, yeah, no, I was just trying to answer your thinking out loud, I will freely admit. Okay. yeah, we don't have to.

>> Sarah : If nothing comes, man, I'm not even talking about her. I understand. Based on everything we've learned so far about the culture at the time, of why she would want to die with them, that makes sense to me. I think she became christian after that happened. but still, that's her family, and those are the rules she first learned about. The way the world works. So just because she takes up Christianity, it's not going to circumvent it. I mean, she's still asked to die. but where I'm still trying to figure out motives and choices is with Pintaro and him. Even though he's abusive and dismissive of marico, they share the look, when we think he's going to die, and a look of respect and knowing that he orders her to live by all else. It's interesting.

>> Will: I do remember, yeah. What you said earlier, as far as the timeline, she had married him before the events happened.

>> Sarah : Okay. It had to have been because, that family wouldn't have allowed that marriage to happen had this murder occurred.

>> Will: Exactly. That's why on the anniversary of her death, whenever she wants to correct the injustice by, you know, joining the rest of the family. Yeah, that makes. That's that. Yeah. So that's why it makes sense. Because he doesn't. Because she's his property and one, Okay, it gets into the whole thing of the whole family honor and stuff. I mean, the honorable thing to do would be to die. But no, he's going to make her relive this dishonor every single year, whenever they have the anniversary of the tragedy. So that's his way of just, like, poking her each time, like, no, we're going to make you relive this dishonor every single year on the anniversary of it.

>> Sarah : Interesting.

>> Will: Yeah. And it goes into that control and that abusive. Not only the cultural dynamics that were going on, but also just his clear abusive and dishonor and disrespect that he has towards her.

>> Sarah : Well, I don't know. I'm not saying that there's love there. It's an act of love or anything, but I think it's a bit more complex because from what I can tell, he's all about honor and respect, so why would he want to. Her shame is also his shame.

>> Will: Well, but also. But she has value to Toronaga.

>> Sarah : Yeah, but that's just recently. She's been married for years.

>> Will: She's been married for years, but she's been trained to speak as an interpreter since she was a child. Because, remember the monk, the Portuguese, priest taught?

>> Will: I mean, so she has some value beyond just tornaga and why she continues to help Toranaga, to show her usefulness to him, even though dishonor is still there.

>> Sarah : Yeah, I feel like if we continue talking about this, it'll just continue going in circles.

>> Will: But we did finally learn as you know, it's been hinted on. And so we finally did learn a full story about what happened there. Which also makes with speaking of honor and stuff, with, Fiji and her family and learning of her father's dishonor, too, with the swords, with his coward's death. and especially when we see a similar parallel thing whenever her husband stepped out of line and committed ritual suicide, as well as taking their son. But then she now has to become the consort and barbarian. But she continues to show her worth to the community and helping, blackthorn by being his consort and trying to help him learn at cultural ways and stuff, even though he still can't get him, still can't quite get it.

>> Sarah : I don't feel like it's a value to the community. She's just becoming her own because she, finds herself in this position tied to someone who doesn't want to pillow her, who, respects her, who gave her a gun and who she. Now, I feel like she loves this new life that she's walked into and she wants to protect it. she knows what the community thinks of him and of her as being. But we find in this episode that she's really owning her place and the place that just so happens, like, Blackthorne has a lot of trust in her. and so she's starting to become one of my favorite.

>> Will: And to your point about, she really likes the station now, because whenever, buntaro was, kept calling her a consort to a barbarian, she's like, no, I'm a consort to a. Yeah, and that moment at the end of the episode, too, I think, it's helping black Thorn whenever she and Blackthorn shared that and her role as far as being the consort to Hanamoto and doing all the things that she's been doing, even to the place of concealing the affair, because she's no dummy. She figured out what was going on whenever they had that conversation into that last episode.

>> Sarah : well, I don't know, time wise, how long. And also the way her and talk, I feel like Marico would have came clean to her and trusted her with that information. but, yeah, I appreciated, that line from, like, the fugee, who we met in the first episode. Would have never had the guts to say that to Venturo.

>> Will: Right.

>> Sarah : But now, since being around Marico and, Blackthorn, she just. It's really interesting to see. And at the same time, there was conflict between her and blackthorn in this episode because of the pheasant, where he picks up a few words and he just so happens to be able to tell them that they may not take this dead pheasant down. it will rot. but in time, it will be cooked and everything, and, everyone's forbidden to touch it. Now, my first thought was ventorial was going to take that down. but it wasn't. the community, the village got together and was like, this pheasant has to go. and it was the gardener who we see throughout this episode, who has become, good friends with blackthorn. And he ends up in his old age saying, I'm willing to do it, and he takes it down. and then because of what Blackthorn says, fuji ends up killing the gardener. And Blackthorn doesn't understand m it at all. and I feel like between this story arc, between the arc with Marico and Bentoro, and even confronting, taranaga at the end and then having the earthquake, Blackthorn is really all of the stability he thought. What he had here in the last episode just continues to be rotated and shaken. His comfort, he just finds himself, no, don't get cozy. You're still the outsider. You've been around us for a little bit of time. That doesn't mean you are one of us. You have so much more to learn. This is still not where you're from. You don't understand our rituals and, our behavior.

>> Will: You'Re right. He's almost invited to the cookout, but not fully invited to the cookout. But, yeah, the whole dynamic there, with blackthorn, again, picking up a few things, but still with the broken jap, with his broken Japanese, like touch die. As soon as that happened, I was just like, I was worried who was going to be the person who would end up, losing their life over that. Because I was like, this is not going to end well. with the pheasant, as you rightly said it, being the gardener, being the one, that ends up losing his life over. It really does drive home the point of what you just said about him. Don't get too comfortable. even though this, but also I think it also is helping Blackthorn come to realize that this place is slowly becoming my home too. And I've got to learn how to live in my new home. especially as what we saw. I think he realizes that whenever we get to the end of the episode, after he saves tornaga with whenever they have the, irony, of taking Fuji's father's swords even though he was a coward, but doing that act because understanding the value of those samurai swords and handing them over, to Toranaga and Toronaga, recognizing that, what Blackthorn was doing there. So I think that really illustrates that point as far as, like, he's getting there. He's getting there.

>> Sarah : Yeah, definitely. What did you think about Lord Toranaga in this?

>> Will: Like, as you said last week, he is so missed. And his presence does just elevate these episodes so much from the very beginning. when he's dressing down his son over the actions that he had undertaken, and also the interplay that he had with, again, knowing he's playing both sides, and Yabashige trying to questions him about that, it was his nephew who convinced his son, to take that action and stuff. and just sort of the whole dynamics that played out there just, again, this shows that he's on one level and everybody else is just, like, trying to. Just trying to keep up with him.

>> Sarah : so last week I threw out there that I think that, ami is the spy. And then you mentioned, no, there's a villager who you think. So the villager at the end, was that who you think it?

>> Will: Yeah. So I was one for one. I was wrong about mataro, but I was right about the spy.

>> Sarah : Yeah. That's what I kept thinking about. Like, at the end, when it's confirmed that that villager. I'm like, wait a second. Is that the person that will was mentioning? Oh, now we're even, on the prediction. Granted, there's just something about, where I don't think it's one spy. I really don't. But for all I know, it was. It's just a through line to kind of drive in this whole dynamic of omni who wants to take over his uncle's position. His uncle playing both sides of this, war between Taranaga and Ishido, and then Toranaga also knowing that he has this ally who can't be trusted, but can still be manipulated, and that's the only reason why he's still alive. That's why I find his character to be so interesting, is just because.

>> Sarah : Everyone knows who he is. He's not a trustworthy person, which makes him honestly a trustworthy person when you're playing a political game, because you're like, at least it's very clear to me that I can't trust you, but I also know what you want. So in a way, I can. Because it's the people who I don't know what they want. I can't trust or who I know want the same thing that I do, which, that's Lord Ishibo. I love it. And I still. It might take me to the very end of the season to just continue to say, please go back and watch the first episode. This character was not dumb in that first episode. So what the fuck happened? Because as much as I love him, I feel like we're getting a different character. And that inconsistency is kind of driving me a bit crazy, just because we're really supposed to, see his nephew as being this bright person, because he managed to even surprise Taranaga and be like, oh, well, he played my son. So now I'm going to give him the canon regimen and reward him, because that's someone who I want as an ally, who's, like a trickster. But the nephew did not understand what was going on in the first episode. Okay, I just can't get over that again. It'll probably take me until the very right.

>> Will: You're right on. Toronago is like when Yabashige was. We'll. I'll discipline him for manipulating your son. Toranaga is like, no, don't. He has given me. So when, like, wants to start war, he's thinking tactically, because if we go to Osaka, which, I know we got. Do you want us to talk about that and what's going on there? They'll take us out, but we're going to make them come to us because. And we got the, tactical advantage now with these cannons and other things. So I thought that was, again, everybody else is just doddling around, trying to get their little fiefdom, and he's just like, I'm going to get the whole empire.

>> Sarah : But he's been that way. Lord Tarnaga has been that way since day. They. They continue to back up what other characters have said about him being trickster, and, he continues to do that. He has a whole speech about ravens, and hawks and everything, and prey and predators, and it's really interesting.

>> Sarah : He'S definitely needed just because everybody else is still figuring out what they're doing. They have their eye on a prize, but they don't really understand what you have to do to get there. while Taranaga has not only already secured that, but moved on to a different game, which brings us to Osaka, which simultaneously, we're getting some crossover to say, okay, while this is going on over here with Toranaga, Ishido is having to deal with the council. that is in a bit of a political disarray. And it's just, they're very calmly arguing, which is exactly what Tornaga predicts was going to happen, was like, okay, I'll just remove myself. But Ishido, just because I'm no longer there, don't think that your quote, unquote, allies are suddenly going to let you pick a replacement, or do things. So, what did you think about the council in this episode, will.

>> Will: The whole dynamic going on there, where they're sitting there going back and forth. Ashido is not high born. So whenever the kayama was like, that sea will stink of countryside. And I was like. And then, Ishido retorts with, that sea will stink of Christian. I mean, it was just like the infighting there. I was just chewing that scene up because I just love seeing as predicted and why Tornaga, again, was so smart to resign. They were just going to devour themselves and resort to infighting. And then Lady Oshibo returns, and with the plan, she was the x factor there, because her son is just waiting to turn 16 so he could take over, and she's just like. She's playing her cards now. As far as. Okay with this whole situation.

>> Sarah : I guess my question, I appreciate where they ended this episode with her basically telling Ishido, bend the knee, which Game of Thrones callback. Thank you.

>> Sarah : But I don't. I'm trying to understand a. Why she thinks she has a lot of power. I get it. She's the mother of the heir. I understand that. And I'm going to say this as a woman. This is a, men's, game, I guess. Also, where I'm confused is Ishido wanted her back at the palace in Osaka.

>> Will: Right.

>> Sarah : So what was his game plan for her return?

>> Will: See, I don't think he saw her as a threat.

>> Sarah : and then my question is, why? Because he seems a bit more tactical. He seems like a fair, opponent for Toranaga. Maybe Toranaga has some edge, but there's something about where he was pulling the strings in the first episode, where I'm like, he had to have some kind of reasoning for wanting her to return, and also, more importantly, Lord Toranaga not wanting her to return.

>> Will: Yeah. At this point, I don't know, to be, mean. I think that's intentional. I think they are trying to like, and rightly so. What are the motivations here? Because it was clear when the previous Tyco died. He drew up this will because he saw where these other regents were going to.

>> Will: So I don't know if the lawyer was sort of like, okay, there's got to be. It must be some clause back there that he had tucked away in his will that, lady Oshida is, like, using now she's playing that mean, granted, everybody probably would be aware of that whenever the regents saw the will where they set up to council. but, yeah, it's a very interesting game. I guess Ashido was, like, the calculus I have right now is I, know what I've got to deal with. The Christians. I know what I got to deal with Tornaga. But now she's this new x factor that I wasn't anticipating. So I guess we'll see how that all plays out in the subsequent episodes.

>> Sarah : We will. I don't agree that he wasn't anticipating her because he wanted her back in the castle. Yeah. M the way they left the episode with their conversation, leaves me wanting to see the next episode and just how that dynamic continues to play out, in surprising ways, because now we have for us as a viewer, we're introduced to a brand new player, knowing that this player is familiar with the players that we have gotten to know over the last few episodes.

>> Will: and one thought I did have while we were talking about it, given that you reminded me that he wanted her at the castle, Tornado wanted her away. Part of it is that he wanted her and the son to be there so they could just have a convenient, convenient assassin take him.

>> Sarah : Right. Which, again, is just why I'm like, ishido. Are you going to let her talk like that way? Are you supposed to kill her? What's going on? So, I don't know. I'm curious about this, especially when I think about how, one of his cards might have been what was somewhat speculated upon, that the heir isn't really the heir and is actually Toronaga's son.

>> Will: Yeah, we've been wondering about that.

>> Sarah : I cannot pronounce their names. I apologize. I can, but I also just, like. I get scared, but I remember things. Okay.

>> Will: Yeah, that's a good callback, with their conversation when the taiko and Tornado were talking about Ashido. That's a good callback. Yeah.

>> Sarah : All right. Well, I think that it is it for us tonight. Will, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you?

>> Will: Yes, you can find me on x, formerly known as Twitter, at willmpolk. Willmmpolk.

>> Sarah : And you can find me there too at SJ Belmont. S j b l m m o n t please follow our crew there at scene and nerd. Friend us on Facebook, follow us on Instagram and threads at scene, underscore n underscore nerd and visit our website ww dot, sceneanderdpod. But most importantly, follow and comment on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever your podcast. Good night. Geek out. You're welcome.