Sarah Belmont: Did you have any pie today

>> Sarah : Greetings, nerds. This is Scene N nerd. I'm your host, Sarah Belmont, and with me, as always, is our Mr. Producer, will Polk Carrie doing tonight.

>> Will: Will, happy pie day. Doing very well. Hope you're doing well.

>> Sarah : Sarah, you are such a. Nerd

>> Will: Yes.

>> Sarah : My God. did you have any pie today?

>> Will: I did not have any pie today. I, should have, but, never got the opportunity, to go to the bakery or anything to get some.

>> Sarah : No, me neither. Did not have any pie of a baking kind or a pizza pie.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, no pizza pie either. Yeah, dinner was so.

>> Sarah : you know, we don't have a chick fil a up here.

>> Will: Really?

>> Sarah : Yeah. I've only ever had it one time, and that was back in August of last year when I was in Barbara.

>> Will: Oh, yeah.

>> Sarah : That's the first time I've ever had chicken filet. First and only.

>> Will: Did it live up to the hype?

>> Sarah : Well, it wasn't really hyped. I was with my coworker, and we were trying to figure out where to go to eat, and she realized we were in short distance to a chickfila, and she's like, no, we're going there. I'm like, okay. It made no difference to me. It was just fried chicken with fries.

>> Will: Yeah, true. Cool. Yeah, I just remember here in the lower 48, I guess a few years ago, there was the whole popeyes thing where people were lining up around the corner and even happened here in Durham where when they had to introduce their chicken sandwich, it was madness, I tell you. But, people take their chicken sandwiches pretty seriously down here in the lower 48.

>> Sarah : Well, I'm not saying we don't up here, but anyways, other things that people take seriously and some people don't are the Oscars, which were held this past Sunday.

Maestro: I thought overall it was not evenly distributed at the Oscars

will, did you watch?

>> Will: Actually, I did. This is the first time I've watched, probably watched about 85% to 90% of the ceremony.

>> Sarah : Nice.

>> Will: In a while. Yeah. This year was just one of those years where I think, obviously, the Barbenheimer phenomenon. And, I know last week when we had our discussion, we were wondering if it was going to, clean up, but, I thought overall it won seven awards, but I think all things, it was not evenly distributed. But other movies did get Oscar love as well, except for killers for the flower moon. Maestro. And, was that, can't, remember the other one, but, that was shut out. That was also nominated best picture.

>> Sarah : Yeah, well, there was ten movies nominated.

>> Will: Yeah. But there was one past lives. Past lives. That's the one I was thinking about past lives.

>> Sarah : There you go. Now I just realized I've seen three because I've seen past lives.

>> Will: Yeah, that was the one I was thinking about last week. I guess I got it. And, the one that Emma stone won for. Yeah, four things confuse, mixed up, but.

>> Sarah : I remember you watching very different movies.

>> Will: Yeah, for sure. No, I just remember you watching one of those two. I know you blanked on it, but then, as you just recalled.

>> Sarah : I watched three. So I saw Oppenheimer. Duh. Like majority of the people did, Oppenheimer, past lives. And I saw, anatomy of a.

>> Will: You know, I've heard people talk about anatomy of a fall, and I know it won best original screenplay, but I did not realize it until literally, looking at the, preparing for our discussion tonight, that it was a french courtroom drama.

>> Sarah : I'm pretty sure I talked about it on the show and I might have mentioned, I don't know if I mentioned so much the French or the fact that the sun in it is death, and how that played into the whole thing. But it's definitely a movie. You don't want to know too much because it's not that big of a plot, but it's surprising how much English is used in it. So I wouldn't necessarily classify it as a french movie, just like I wouldn't classify, past lives as a korean movie because they use both languages throughout the entire thing. So it's like 50 50. but this is how much I did not like past lives. I completely forgot about it. I watched that months ago.

>> Will: Yeah. Which is probably why many academy voters felt the same way.

>> Sarah : Well, but at the time, I mean, even Snyder, I think, said, I think you told me that he said he watched both past lives and Oppenheimer and got more feeling left with it, hitting him harder with past lives than Oppenheimer. Now, I would say neither movie because Oppenheimer is good. I completely understand it. Bravo to Nolan for getting his best directing award. Killian Robert Downing Jr. Who I called from the moment I watched the movie, was going to get that, or at least I was rooting for him to get it the whole time. So I understand the praise for it. At the same time, I still have it stuck in my head. Something that some critics said a long time ago about Nolan. And I think it was around the time interstellar came out. It's just that his movies, at the end of the day, are cold and they're beautiful. They're, a tour de force of sorts. But at the end of the day, it's not that the characters aren't dynamic. It's not that the character stories are not fascinating. It's just that they don't tend to pull at your heartstrings as, So from that standpoint, I have that in back my mind whenever I'm watching a Nolan movie where I'm like, I enjoy this, but it's not something that I feel as though I know the characters, and I want to be in their world for a full day or something.

>> Will: I don't remember whenever we talked about Oppenheimer, that was one of the things that we did discuss. And I agree with you that his movies are, because I think I watched Dunkirk, right around the time, I think either right before Oppenheimer or after, just because I was just like, I'm just on a Nolan kick, and did that. But, I will say Oppenheimer still to this day, still resonates with me as far as. Just like, that ending. Spoiler alert. If you haven't seen it, and in particular speech, that interaction with one of a very famous physicist, and all that, still rings with me as far as that film.

>> Sarah : Yeah, I like how you said spoiler and you didn't even name the physicist. You still were masking it under a non spoiler.

The Spiderverse got robbed, but I won't say it got robbed

Anyways, so I did not watch the oscars. I've seen the clips. I've, of course, watched Ryan Gosling perform. I've seen John Scene N nudity. I watched a few of the acceptance speeches. And for the most part, the only other thing that I had thought about was just the fact that, across the spiderverse got robbed.

>> Will: Well, I won't say it got robbed. I haven't watched the boy in the heron, so I can't objectively say it got robbed. But I know Shamik Moore, who voices, miles, definitely said that, but he walked it back a little bit, after, he was cooled down a bit. but I was surprised, that it did not win. But I think we were like, maybe, we've mentioned this before, maybe either here on the podcast or maybe just talking, and I even mentioned it to you the other night when we're messaging that maybe it's like a middle of a trilogy thing where they're like, we'll give you your flowers when we see the full.

>> Sarah : Mean. They have. The Oscars have something against that middle movie. And I get it. For the most part, I understand why Oscar voters might be like, yeah, but it didn't really have an ending because it was to be continued. So it was half of a story. You can make that argument, but to this day, that is one of the one movie. Granted, I did not watch a lot of movies last year, but one movie that I have rewatched one time.

>> Will: That'S all I need is one time. That's a rewatch. It counts.

>> Sarah : And it's a good movie. It's well paced. It's comedy. There's remnants of the. It's a really good sequel at the end of the day. and yeah, I was a bit disappointed by that. But I also understand, I can see how the voters might go after something else. that is one story a little bit more underrated. I get it. it was so good, though.

>> Will: Yeah. And I think also, I think I read somewhere where this was, Hayozaki's last film, because I think he's like 87 years old or something like that. As far as the director, for the boy and a heron. So maybe that also played into it some as well.

>> Sarah : Maybe. You never know because we're not a part of academy, so we do not know how those things work.

We're going to dive into the first of three episodes of Shogun

and on that note, we're going to dive into the first of three episodes of Shogun. We have to cover, Shogun, episode two, servants of two masters. The IMDb episode summary says Blackthorn's arrival in Osaka stirs up a hornet's nest of rivalries. Marico is trapped between her cause and her face when she must translate for the barbarian in Lord, Torinaga's custody. So that is it. And I have tried practicing. It's just that when I'm reading something, letters make my tongue do different things. Anyway, will, what did you think about this episode?

>> Will: And really, the theme for all three of these episodes we'll discuss tonight. When you look at the story and stuff and the mechanisms, as far as the characters in there, the titles really do illustrate what's going on there because, as you noted, Mariko's trap between her cause and her faith. And that really does capture the dynamics that were going on with the servant of two masters, where she is serving as a translator for the, you know, the question comes, know this man, meaning Blackthorn, insulted your faith. Will that impact your ability to translate for know? So there's those kind of things. And also just the dynamics between, Shiba and Shido and Tornaga, as far as Yashibe trying to play off both of the two masters, and he's trying to serve both of them as far as their particular ends. And also, I really like the way that they started to peel back the story and really get into some of the bigger things that are going on in the world at that time.

>> Sarah : Yeah. this episode, episode two servants of two masters. I can appreciate them dropping this and the first episode together. However, I like how we didn't watch them back to back, because I feel as though the pilot episode, pun intended, was really good at setting the stage, but leaving a lot of questions about what was really happening. While I believe in this episode, we got a lot of answers and we got a lot of structure about who are friends, who are enemies, what are our players, and how is blackthorn. And Blackthorn is more focused starting in this episode, moving forward. But at the same time, we get to learn a lot about Toranaga as we even start with a flashback to the night of Lord Teko's death, which is really the start of this whole chain of events. in we. We have him, and then he explains what the council of regents are, which we didn't have that information beforehand in the first episode, even though we saw the council. but now we see how it's created. And, it's kind of a safety net of sort that he put in place until his son turns 16. Now, there was a look. There was a look. And I am listening to, Roca's podcast that he does, and he's right now talking with someone about the show and doing their reviews of a book reader. And I can appreciate that the book reader is not spoiling things, as far as I can tell. now, so from what I understand, it's even more kind of, evident in the book that potentially the heir is.

>> Will: Even. Even thinking. As I mentioned to you, I was going to rewatch this episode because I watched it late last week, and one of the lines, with that look that you're talking about and that Tycho and Toronaga, when he's lying there, it's like the thing, he says we shit in each other. Shit too many times in the same pot to piss on, our feet or something. And so I was just like, oh, yeah, there's definitely some history, their whole. Their whole back and forth. And you can tell for me, watching that scene, it makes sense why he, not only because Tornaga's menowir, which of course, he's high born, but also he understands. And, they have a history there and a level of trust there that I guess he knows that he can trust Tarnaga to do the right thing with his son, because he's going to follow tradition and not use this as an opportunity to usurp and make himself maybe like a shido would, shogun over the country and also really keep the peace and not leave things and lead into war.

>> Sarah : Right. well, yeah, we'll get there. I had a thought about where to go to next.

This episode put more emphasis on explaining the portuguese

So something that I really appreciate about this episode was also the more emphasis on explaining the portuguese and the how I like how, something happened in Macau that the Portuguese are trying to hide. And it's detailed in Blackthorn's journals.

>> Will: Right.

>> Sarah : So now the Portuguese want Blackthorn gone, because he's a threat, because he has information about how the portuguese and the Spanish have divided up the map and all of these unclaimed countries, and Japan falls under the portuguese line. Now, the Japanese are not aware of this, until at the very end, when, Blackthorn draws his own map of the world and explains things. and I just like how they dropped it at the very beginning, and then they gave you a lot of other things to pay attention to and to follow through on. but really, the main point was explaining why a black foreign could be viewed as an ally, and not an enemy. And also, at the same time, just the larger politics that extend beyond just the internal fighting within Japan. And I think that's why I'm finding this show to be so multilayered, because you have this infighting, but you also have this bigger picture going on. And so you have Tornaga in the middle, who, now that he's aware, is trying to not only outmaneuver his, rivals on the council, but also put on his big boy pants and try to outmaneuver, these countries who have these people of power that he doesn't even know about and who are making, trying to step up to that find. I find, that to be very clever and very entertaining, to.

>> Will: Yeah, yeah, I do.

The issue of whether Blackthorne was a pirate comes up in this book

You know, it gets back to the title, too, as far as two masters, because in Blackthorne's case, he has two masters, in the sense that one, he serves the queen because he's Englishman, but he's also been hired by the Dutch to traverse, open up these lanes. The issue of whether or not he was a pirate came up. On the one hand. Yeah, if you look at it from the dutch standpoint, there was in those journals highlighting the fact that you could look at the actions that they were doing were some form of piracy. But on the other hand, as he was drawing his map and talking about the mean m, he also had the role, as far as under crown, of trying to open up. You know, he was talking to Tornaga about the queen and being the diplomat as well. Again, you're right. Having not only the internal political dynamics going on there in Osaka Castle, but then also when you bring it out to the larger world and you look at all these great powers, other great powers of the world, fighting over these swaths of land, and then, of course, throwing the religious element, too, because the Portuguese, the church, is also trying to profit from the riches with Macau and having the ronin there, as far as with the Spanish, fortress and stuff. So, I mean, there's just all those little things that are going on that really does make a very layered story.

>> Sarah : Yeah.

I'm glad we didn't watch them back to back, because you're right

Ah, the last bit, that I want to mention is that in this episode, we find out that Shogun in Japan is the ultimate rank a mortal can.

>> Will: that was another thing, too. Like, whenever, Ashido was doing the bureaucratic things and ordering Blackthorn to be imprisoned and all that, he would look over to the armor, because he would look around and you would see the tycho's armor, who was the last. He's doing these ministerial duties and having thoughts of grandchildren, while he's just being a bureaucrat, essentially. And then seeing all these other three regents, fight over with the christian regents, doing their political things again, working their two masters. They're serving of two masters. There's the thing of trying to enrich themselves as far as having these relations with the church and using these trade routes and stuff, but also, having their faith as well as far as being converted and doing things under, the guise of religion and worship and those kind of things. Again, like you said earlier, it really did sort of set the table, as far as I'm glad we didn't watch them back to back, because you're right. I think it gave an opportunity to really get a better grasp or handle on a lot of the players in this universe that I felt like if I watched these things back to back, I would have gotten it. But I think, spreading out had me a chance to marinate it on it a little bit more.

>> Sarah : I would have definitely understood it, but I don't think I would have been. Like I said before, all of the questions I had, I felt majority of them were answered in the second episode, so I wouldn't have been left. Like, oh, I'm really intrigued. I would have been like, okay, good story.

>> Will: Yeah. And also just like, the assassin there at the know and the whole dynamic, having that mystery there at the end, like, okay. Especially given that we saw Yashibe having these conversations with know and setting up who was behind the. And, especially when at first, because of all the political dynamics going on with the impeachment, maybe folks think that this is just a way to take out Tornaga, but actually, the assassin was sent there to kill Blackthorn because of all the things that are going on.

>> Sarah : With him, or the Portuguese. I knew it was them just because I think the. Well, first of all, I'm going to be honest, while watching it, I was very confused about where people were. So I will be honest. I never had the thought, like, oh, this assassin is going to go kill Torinaga. Never entered my mind. I was completely like, they're going to kill Blackthorn. Because I feel as though how the episode was last. I feel as though we had just maybe a scene one or two before that was, the priests who were talking about what a threat he is and talking specifically to one of the three council or regents who are christian. And so that's where I was. And so when that happened, I wasn't really surprised. And then I was even more surprised when later they said, oh, yeah, people thought that he was after the assassin and wanted to kill Toranaga, but Toranaga was a trickster. So he did this maneuver.

>> Will: And I'm like, okay, yeah, sure. Yeah, I get that. I think for me, it was just how it was set up. I just like the way it was sort of executed, because I remember, because you had Tornaga, like, setting up the guests, setting up the bed and making the things and stuff. So when the assassin came, I was like, oh, yeah, I see where they're going here. But it was still within the context of the story. it made a lot of sense. and I like the way that it sort of unfolded, given, like, as you noted, with the christian regents, and their alliances with the Portuguese and all. Yeah, it definitely flowed very well.

Tomorrow is the third episode of the series, which premieres tomorrow

>> Sarah : Right. Especially because it's the perfect catalyst to, kick off the third episode. Tomorrow is tomorrow, where, after Blackthorn survives a brazen assassination attempt, Toronaga realizes he must ferry his allies out of Osaka or risk certain defeat. So they took that, and then, which the whole premise of this episode is Torinaga maneuvering people again to not only get his allies out, but also him out of Osaka. and you know what? I think lord, Yabashuge is probably becoming my favorite character.

>> Will: Same.

>> Sarah : and I understand he boiled a man alive in the first episode. Yeah, that was first episode. We're in episode three where he's having a conversation with Toranaga, and there's something about him where the actor is doing a great job to. I wouldn't put him at the same table as Anthony Starr playing Homelander, but I can see he's having fun, and I can also feel as though his character is really put in these situations that I think is the most entertaining. This episode and the next episode, I'm just like, where is my man? What is he doing? And he's honest in this conversation. He's actually not seeking Shogun status. He doesn't desire that. He just wants more land. So, in a way, he wants more power, but he's not after the main goal that, Ishido and Torinaga are after and fighting about right now with the. So in that moment, I was like, okay, I get you. I understand you. And I also can appreciate he knows where he's strongest at. and I think it's very clever for them in this moment for him to say, I don't have the power or the mind for that role. I'm not after being a bureaucrat or anything. He, does have all of this history of being a great samurai and leading armies and all of that, which I think is very telling. there's a scene that happens in the next episode that we can circle back to, but I like this conversation, and I especially like it because it's so honest in this game of deception that people are playing, where it's also like they both know that each other are going to tell some lies and they're going to make this agreement, but at the end of the day, both of them are going to do whatever is the most self pleasing. I feel like it's like honor among thieves. You know what I'm trying to.

>> Will: Mean? Ah, yeah. Because Tornaga asks Yashiba, aren't you my reliable.

>> Sarah : Yeah, yeah. It's like, fleet. So through the course of this, he managed to get Yabashuge to agree to lead his allies out of Osaka, unbeknownst to him and a few other people, for anaga sneaks in there, too. And, it's very tense for a good portion of this episode.

There were some standout scenes in this episode that stood out to me

but, what are some scenes that stuck out to you, will?

>> Will: Yeah. So, like you noted, the, scene between Tornaga and Yashube definitely sticks out, because it really, as we just discussed, really gets into, like, the Toranaga is one of those. On the one hand, I'm like, it's okay, everybody else. Is he playing chess and everybody else playing checkers, or is he just really, like, super? He's just really good at just staying one step ahead of everyone else. And sometimes he's just playing out lucky. But the other thing that really makes his character, really understand where he's coming from is when Marco tells Blackthorn the story about how when he was six years old, his father, Tornaga's father, he was taken away and bartered, away to the family's rival. So he learned that the thing they say in the episode is the enemies are everywhere and friends nowhere. And so that's sort of the, ethos that's driving him and making these decisions and stuff. So whenever he does that with. When he has that makes that statement to Yeshuba, he's speaking from experience. As far as seeing how rivals play off of each other. That's something that really stands out to me. And also, he's trying to impart that same lesson to his son. But his son is playing these other games. Nakato is, playing a game of friends and enemies and not choosing himself, which is something that Torananga learned very early in life. So that really does a great framing of where he's coming from and all these.

>> Sarah : Definitely, Tori naga is right up there with, yeshubi, as my favorite character, just because he is so smart, and he's also not boastful about it. And he allows, Mariko at one point to explain his plan, because he realizes that she's actually following and connecting the dots, more so than even his right hand man, her father in law, I don't know, he has this presence, about him where actually, for the most part, all of the regents doing a great job. I especially love in this episode when, Torinaga reveals himself, and then, the men that they were protecting. And in the distance, you see the onlookers who, are basically pro portuguese. them looking down and like they're fighting each other. Yeah. Thank you. This is what we're talking about, because it's not one war, it's a multitude of wars. And I think that was really telling in that moment.

Marico's husband Buntaro is killed in this episode

we also continue. We meet and see a lot more up until the end of, Marico's husband, Buntaro, that's his nickname, and who ends up self sacrificing? well, we don't know if he's dead, because he's dead. He didn't show it, but, yeah, he's dead.

>> Will: He's dead.

>> Sarah : Yeah.

>> Will: It will be a dishonor if he got captured in the samurai culture.

>> Sarah : Right. But he also didn't kill himself.

>> Will: Yeah, well, apparently that was a switch from the books because apparently he does commit CBK on the dock, whenever Toronaga and everybody was able to get to the galley, off the.

>> Sarah : So anyway, so will's going to proclaim he's dead. He's, Which frees up Marico. Just saying.

>> Will: Yeah. but that was another interesting scene for me, too, just the look, because there were two things. One, the Toronaga calling him by his given name. one, just to give him that honor, but two, also the look that she has to him. One, it was a conflicted look, the way I read it, because, as you noted, we haven't seen much of him, but we saw more of him this episode than we have in the past. But whenever we do see him, he's a very domineering, very, brutal kind of dude with their son. He's always very rough with him as far as discipline and talking to him and stuff. So on the one hand, she's like, he's gone, but on the other hand, she's like, I'm free now. I felt there was a very conflicted, emotions whenever he was killed.

>> Sarah : Yeah, I agree with that. Agreed.

This episode features a boat race between Blackthorn and Tornaga

>> Sarah : So now they're on the boats, but they're on a small boat. And, simultaneously, because there always has to be a c and a d storyline in the show going on. we talk about the black ship, which is a portuguese trade vessel that Tornaga actually denies its, rights to leave. But the ship caption says, fu. I, ah, have a different master to serve, and I'm going to go if I want to. and that just so happens to be leaving at the exact same time that all of, Toranaga and his allies are making their way and they realize that they're surrounded by some fishing boats. And anyway, this leads to Toranaga making a deal to get in on the black ship so that they can get through, and out of the. And. And then it ultimately leads to a boat race because the deal, go figure, is that Blackthorn must stay behind. And, Blackthorn knows, how to, I don't know, steer a boat. Is that. Yeah, he's piling in the boat. Okay, I guess I get confused because there's no wheel, the lever thing.

>> Will: Just a lever thing. Very phallic, especially given he and Rodriguez is like, insults back and forth to one another. It was definitely know mine's bigger than yours going on there.

>> Sarah : but at the end of the day, Rodriguez has a debt to Blackthorn. And so instead of crashing his boat up against the rocks, he lets him pass, and both ships manage to break free. They are on their way. And the last bit of this episode was blackthorn teaching, Tornaga how to dive, and then them ultimately swimming to the coast.

>> Will: Yeah.

Toronago resigns from the council in this episode

another thing, too, before we move on to the next episode, is, a very important thing I think is notable in this episode is the fact that Toronago, resigns from the, You know, because, again, the way that, like, set things up, five regents had to agree to rule things, so you can't impeach the guy if he's not on the council, but then at the same time, they can't govern the things because there's not five regents. So again, he's just, playing the big game. And then also, as you know, with the boat, with Blackthorn being left behind. One thing I also liked about it is just when you thought that they were building an ally and building an alliance, again, what I stated earlier about what Tornago learned early in life, he doesn't have. You may be an ally now, but you also could be a pawn if it helps me move things to my advantage. Everybody is expendable. So that's another thing that, was just reinforced in this episode as.

>> Sarah : Yeah, yeah.

Episode four of Naruto is probably my least favorite episode so far

All right, and that leads us to episode four, the Eightfold Fence. Blackthorn America test their new alliance as they train Toranaga's gun regimen for war. Yaboshige, must navigate his past promises to Ishido when an old friend comes to the village. so I love how it took a good 20 minutes for us to realize that the island that they just arrived at is the same island that we met Blackthorn, Yabu Boucher, and, others in the first episode. We come full circle with this island. and so I really got a kick out of that.

>> Will: Yeah, everything comes back. Yeah, because you're right. We're back to where we started.

>> Sarah : well, we are back to where we started, but things are different because what I also forgot to mention that happens at the very end of the last episode is that, through this adventure or them getting out, Lord Tornaga decides to give Blackthorn a title.

>> Will: The.

>> Sarah : Hatamoto title, which is very, he's returning to this village where he was the prisoner, but now he's a title, but he's still a prisoner.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : He's still just a pawn in the game. and, something else about their arrival and what I was hinting at, I, think in the episode two discussion, or at the beginning of episode three was, that we see them greeted and yabu bushke, now I'm just making it sound russian. Yabubushke, he, greets his army, and they are all yelling his name. And then he tells Tornaga, too. And over the course of him doing that, you can see the look on his face where suddenly he's like, this is what I wanted. But, whoa, they're doing this a bit too much.

>> Will: Yeah. Especially, like, with the whole, that was funny. I'm glad you brought that up. Because whenever they were getting the village, all the area cleaned up because tornado is coming and we got to put on our best. And then when all that goes down, because, I think it was his wife or maybe Omi's wife or mother, somebody was like, got to get out the best saki. Right? And then after, like you said, after that went on, a little bit too long, as far as giving Torinaga praise, they're like, we shouldn't have kept giving the cheap stuff.

>> Sarah : Yeah. Especially because the man just disappears. Like, he floats away. Where did he go?

>> Will: He went to Edo.

>> Sarah : Okay. He went to.

>> Will: So, yeah, he went to Edo to plan. To plan.

>> Sarah : This is probably, I'm going to say right now, my least favorite episode I've watched so far. because after this good 2015 minutes, it, becomes very typical. I don't know, a lot of the stuff. It's not that it rubbed me the wrong way. I was just like, oh, we're just doing basic storytelling now. Okay. Now that the mastermind isn't around, suddenly these characters are very not as interesting as I would want them to be. And, yeah, I don't know. I will admit I checked out a good ten to 15 minutes before the episode was over. I mean, I came back to watch people get,

>> Will: Finer point on it.

So was all the things going on with the romance budding romance story between Blackthorn and Marco

So was all the things going on with the romance budding romance story between Blackthorn and Marco and of course, the whole things with Fuji, as far as her being his consort, was it sort of the white saber trope thing that was, like, felt? I guess the romance story was just sort of, not telegraphed but not as compelling, I would say.

>> Sarah : It's definitely telegraphed.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : I knew it from the very beginning that those two get together. I didn't need anybody to have read the book and tell me that those two. And I'm like, okay. I actually did appreciate the, bringing Fugi in, because, a. I'm glad they answered my question. Why do we care about this baby and this dad dying in the first episode? But now to understand her character and the importance of her later? And plus, she had, arguably, one of the better moments in this episode with the revolver. So the I. But it was mainly just the stuff with Marico and Blackthorn. I don't like. They're both separately really good. And there are moments, brief moments, where I find their conversations to be really interesting, but then they continue talking, and I'm like, I'm so. So.

This episode is called the Eightfold fence. And it reminded me of what is said at the end of the first episode

This episode is called the Eightfold fence. M and miracle explains what the Eightfold fence is. And I'm just thinking, in my mind, that sounded way more fascinating in the trailers than what is being explained right now. And it reminded me of what is said at the very end of the first episode about how you have three hearts. And at the moment, I was like, that sounds so cliche. I don't know. I think you're right that there's an aspect that is more seen in this episode specifically, because after three episodes, we're now really getting a heavy, black, thorn focused episode where I am like, I have seen a lot of movies and a lot of TV shows where they've done this. granted, a lot worse, but I've seen this story, and it's so cliche that suddenly the interest that I had in that first episode is drastically depleting because they also took away one of the more interesting characters. Bring Toranaga back.

>> Will: Yeah, but the shadow of Toranaga was well over this episode, especially with the son and Omnib, especially whenever they were having that conversation, where, Omni was playing, it was one of those things on the official podcast. They were talking about that particular scene as far as, like, Omi and Shido, and a lot of these characters are not high born, whereas Nagato is. And the lessons that, Tornago was trying to teach his son, he didn't get, whereas Shubay's nephew did understand some of this stuff, how to keep your, enemies, your friends close, your enemies closer, or. I think that's how the thing goes. But he was figuring all those things out as far as how to build these alliances and not playing friends and allies and that kind of. So I get m what you're saying about the, Blackthorn and, Marco's thing, and I agree, it was probably the least compelling aspect of the episode for me, but there was still a lot of things going on in between there. that definitely kept me impact. I mean, for me so far, the third episode, definitely for me, is the stand up. But this one, it had a lot of things going forward, especially, whenever they were out to training, I did like, speaking of Blackthorn and Marco, I like how she called bullshit whenever he was trying to relate a story of those, like you were saying there was those elements like that where those things did stand out. but also how he responded, like, look, I'm a navy guy. He told him before, I'm not an infantry guy. I'm a seamen.

Joseph: I don't understand his nephew's plan in this episode

>> Sarah : So I have a question for you, because, I was watching the episode, but I also was checking out here and there. so I understood the predicament that Yaboshigo gay is in, in this circumstance of where Ashido's men have arrived and now want him to go back to Ahsoka. granted, probably for his death, because he betrayed Ishido. So I understand that. But what I don't understand is why his nephew, I don't understand his nephew's plan. So his nephew essentially gets, brainwashes or just plants a little seed in Tornaga's son's head that, he should fight this battle. because Ishido's men are, they're the enemy, and you have to make a stand so people will start recognizing you instead of you as your father's son or whatever. and so that leads to him essentially declaring war on Ishido by blowing up his infantry. So. But how does that help Yaboshiga ger in the.

>> Will: So, well, it you, as, you know, basically when Joseph's, number one shows up, because they hear the cannons going off and stuff, and of course, Torinaga leaving Osaka castle without. When Joseph and Yabashuge, whenever he was, like, bragging about, look, we've learned these new tactics that are going to help us against the. Help us in our fights and stuff, Joseph was like, all right, yeah, I'm sure I'm going to be surprised. Yeah, right. He was very dismissive of, help. It doesn't help Yamashige at all at the end of the day. But I will say, Omni's been playing this game from the moment, from the first episode, really, when they first discovered the Erasmus and the men, as you said earlier in the episode, Yabashuge would just be happy just expanding his fiefdom. His nephew has larger ambitions.

>> Sarah : But what is that larger ambition? Like, what does this even get Omni?

>> Will: I think he wants to have, a seat on the council, ultimately.

>> Sarah : But how does that get him there?

>> Will: I think that's something that we'll have to sort of, I guess, building an alliance with Toranaga's son.

>> Sarah : it doesn't seem like an alliance, because actually, I don't know. I'm glad to hear that. It sounds as though I didn't miss something.

>> Will: No, you didn't.

>> Sarah : The way people are talking about this, I was very confused, because to me, I'm just like, I don't understand the strategy here. and so that's why I can't necessarily say that he's a very strategic thinker, because I understand that he wants power, unlike his uncle, but I'm still not shown exactly what tactics he's using to get it. I just basically seen manipulation of a character, but I don't know why.

>> Will: Yeah, well, remember, I think it's the ambition. One of the things. As I was looking back to my notes here, I made a note that, whereas, Nagato didn't get what Tornago was trying to tell him, Tornaga didn't get what Nagato was trying to tell Tornaga, which, at the beginning of this episode, he did say an ally with ambition is. No. Yes. So I think even though Yabashuge and Ami are acting like we're all friends here and think, you know, by pushing Nagato to do this rash act to set things in motion for war, which at the end of the day, I guess he's hoping that these various rival factions take each other out and that there'd be a vacuum where he can sweep right in and become either. Phil.

>> Sarah : I think we're missing it. It just dawned on me, it's not so that they take each other out, it's that they actually do end up taking out their uncle. His uncle. He wants his uncle to die so that he gets to be the lord.

>> Will: Yeah, that's.

>> Sarah : Mean. Granted, I could argue, well, if he returned to Osaka, that would have happened, too, but whatever.

>> Will: Yeah. But then he would be dishonored, because it was very.

>> Sarah : See, that makes sense. That makes sense now that you bring up the dishonoring fact of it, because it would be the whole family. Okay, we're getting somewhere with this.

One thing, though, that is kind of an inconsistency with this nephew character

One thing, though, I want to point out, that is kind of an inconsistency with this nephew character is that, yabushiga, in the very first episode, had to explain to his nephew why he wanted to keep hold of the ship and the barbarian so much. M so I keep thinking about this while we're having this conversation, and for someone who, in later, two episodes later, explains that he doesn't understand the politics and doesn't have the head, in that first episode, we're introduced to him, and he seems very smart. And now later in the fourth episode, I'm supposed to believe that his son. No, his nephew, is even more strategic than he is. I don't know. I think you're right, though. But it's more about the ambition, not about the strategy.

>> Will: Yeah, it's definitely not about strategic, for sure. it's the ambition. but the siege or planet. I remember way back in that very first episode, whenever they found the ship, as I mentioned earlier, that Omi was already thinking, like, how can I use this to my advantage? Yabashuge is just like, let me stick up the wind and see which way the things are going, and I will do what I need to do to. But I think as a death wish, too, though, because he was like, remember, he was making out his. I don't know if it's a death wish or something, but I think he's just trying to stay alive, or completely.

>> Sarah : It's self preservation, because the thing he was good at, he can no longer do, essentially, because he's a soldier who doesn't have a war, and, well, now he has a war. But I understand what you're saying, and I agree that to an extent, the ambition in his nephew, in Omni, was like, that seed was planted in that first episode. But I still am going to argue that it was Yabashuge, his uncle, who explains to him, like, beat for beat, why it is so critical that they retain, a hold of the ship in the barbarian because of this internal fighting between Toranaga and Ishido. And then right in that split second, we have Toranaga's right hand man arrive and say, oh, you didn't realize that we knew. Which I did make a note, and I have a feeling it was actually Omni who sold out the fact that Blackthorn, and the ship had arrived at the. I. Now, if that's true, I might take back a little bit of what I'm saying, because that is very strategic, because he's playing a different game. Than everybody else. just because of every time it's mentioned, there's a look on his face where I'm like, you know something?

>> Will: Yeah, he very well could be the spy. The other person I thought might have been a spy is there's been like this common guy, this commoner who always just sort of shows up because he showed up again in this episode, in the village. I don't know if he's just the common guy that just happens to be at the right place at the right time, or if he is the rat who is like, feeding information back to the folks. we'll see what happens there. But you're right. It would not surprise me, though, if, omni was the person who was like his uncle, playing both sides.

>> Sarah : Yeah.

I did appreciate the conversation where Marico brings up earthquakes, tsunami

the last bit, that I want to talk about is, for as much shit as I give all of black Florida Marico scene in this episode, I did appreciate the conversation where Marico brings up, the fact that they have earthquakes, tsunami. Death is in Japan's air, water and land. And we live, we die, and we can control nothing beyond that. And I think I really appreciate that because that brings so much understanding for me, in terms of why there is such a practice of choosing to kill yourself when you don't foresee another action. Because you have these other forces at play that are threatening to take that one choice from you. And I really like how it was just they didn't over explain it. It was a perfect metaphor. And there was a lot of scenes, in previous episodes that allowed you to make that connection as a viewer. So I do applaud, how that scene was written. Or maybe not that scene, but just like that one part.

>> Will: Yeah, no, I agree. you're right. It did, in a very good way of exposition, give context to all of this, what's going on. And also really is a good. Especially when you consider how the end of the episode happened with the brutality of the cannons being unleashed and everybody getting disemboweled and bowling to pieces and stuff. Why they have really have kept the peace and trying to do their best not to go to war. Because, just a waste that it would cause. these, was. I'm glad you brought that scene other.

Tor: I feel like it's all too soon for Shogun

Since we're talking about, Marco and Blackthorn, the scene, that thing that sticks out to me especially just as we move forward, after they do hook up. Well, after the gift was given of the courtesy, whether or not it was her or not. I like the way that how they played it off that next morning, where she basically set up a situation, talking about it in front of Fiji, where they have complete plausible deniability with what happened that night before then. I'm pretty sure they.

>> Sarah : That was. That was. Was. I just feel like it's all too soon. It's all too soon. it's all too telegraphed.

>> Will: Well, I only have ten episodes, so there's no second season, so they got to get it in.

>> Sarah : I don't care how it's written in the books. I don't care. You make people earn it. Good romance. Sometimes all you need is a kiss, too. You don't have to actually watch them. Fuck. No. Come on, it's got to be well earned. I, don't know. Anyway, they have it, but then he dies.

>> Will: Yeah.

>> Sarah : And again, I'm someone who's obsessed with the show one day.

>> Will: Exactly. No, I just like the plausible deniability there because especially to your point about it being so soon, like, lady, your husband just got killed last night. What's going on?

>> Sarah : Yeah.

>> Will: well, maybe longer, but that was.

>> Sarah : Because it was winter.

>> Will: It was winter.

>> Sarah : I think that that's a few days journey at least. But granted, within the same week, you lose your husband and then fuck the barbarian. Really? but I get it. She probably hasn't had sex with her husband in about how old is her son?

>> Will: He looks at being a teenager.

>> Sarah : Yeah, that was probably the last time they had sex.

>> Will: Yeah. But to that point about the whole consort and stuff, too, I like the way. I'm glad they did. Explain to the thing about being too soon and stuff. It's like, it makes total sense why Fiji was like, okay, I'll be, at your console for six months, just so we can honor you being a moto. And you got to follow the traditions. I did like the fact that, as we were just discussing earlier, whenever she had those pivotal scenes there with, the men and the pistols and later, dinner and all that kind of stuff, as far as him eating, learning more traditions, learning how to speak Japanese and that kind of stuff, they reached an understanding. And so she did give her father's old swords to him so he can be official. after he gifted her, after the muskets at the pistol, those were like the little things that they do in the story that I appreciate as far as just really with the culture and some of those beats like that. this really makes this, to me, adds a depth to this authenticity that this show really conveys throughout.

>> Sarah : Yeah, I'm still on board with Shogun. I just have to be honest. This episode, it felt more like a step back for me, just because it makes me start to read into things a bit more. And when you have time to do that, because the story is kind of just becoming too stereotypical, you're like, okay, but I'm still interested to see where this goes. However, I'm kind of also starting to have some, I guess, reverences or I'm starting to act very cautious, because if this episode is a sign of what's to come, I'm like, okay, I've seen this before. but it doesn't take just having a lot of stories have been told, and then you just watch something and it's basically the same thing. It's just with different characters in different setting. So I'm not taking away from, the cinematography is great, the writing, I think, it's not as strong right now for me. but it could pick up again in later episodes, with the return of Toranaga. Just going to say, the acting, for the most part, pretty good. I haven't been too mad at any of the performances given. and I just remembered Rodriguez. Like, we got him for one episode, another episode, and then he was also missing from this. Missing.

>> Will: Missing Rodriguez will be. I mean, I think the shadow of tornalga definitely, was.

>> Sarah : You can say that, but I missed.

>> Will: So, yeah, it was there. But I agree, Matt. Whenever he is on screen and an active role, the episodes do take another level. I would agree, because as soon as. Yeah, I mean, I felt the same way with this episode where once he left off to go to Edo, I was like, we're getting it back, right?

Please rate, follow, and comment on our podcasts on iTunes and elsewhere

>> Sarah : All right, well, on that note, will, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you?

>> Will: Yes, you can find me on X, formerly known as Twitter, at ah, Will. Mpolk mwillmpolk.

>> Sarah : And you can find me there, too, at SJ Belmont. S j b E l m m o n t please follow our crew on Twitter at Scene N nerd find us on. On Instagram and threads at scene underscore n underscore nerd. And visit our website, ww sceneanderdpodcast.com. But most importantly, rate, follow, and comment on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Good night. Geek out. You're welcome.