Andor & The Last of Us - Deep Dive into S2 E7-9 & E2 x 5

0:00 >> Sarah : Foreign nerds. This is Scene N Nerd. I'm your host, Sarah Belmont, and with me, as always, is our Mr. Producer, Will Polk How are you doing tonight, Will? >> Will: Doing very well, Sarah. Happy Tuesday. Hope you're doing well. >> Sarah : Happy Tuesday indeed. I am doing fine. I am here. We're making our way through May. >> Will: Yeah, Making our way through May. Yeah. Making our way through May. It's of course we got the, the Last of Us tonight that we're talking about, of course, andor which season two, episode seven through nine, which I think everybody's talked about, but hopefully we can add our, our unique spin to it. I know as we were, we were talking before you had share some thoughts about the pivotal scenes in episode eight, but we'll, we'll get into that, and how commercials don't help.

1:00 But but yeah, but I, I, I, before we got to that, I did have some quick note news notes that we haven't, haven't had a news segment last week. so wanted to hit a couple things that, that dropped this week if, if you're. >> Sarah : Yeah, cool. Oh, the way you said it, I thought you were gonna go into it, so that's why I was like waiting. >> Will: No, no. Ah, yeah, see. Yeah, we have some news this week that we have the upfronts that the every. I guess it's been a while since they've had really, really big upfronts. But it's the big advertising, thing that all the networks and now streamers put on as far as, sharing, you know, the upcoming items for the next, season. And so, the first one, the big one today that we got was news that Criston, Ritter is going to be returning to the Marvel Universe and Daredevil Born Again Season two. She's going to be, which premieres in March. I think they're, I think they're, I think they, I think they have finished production as far as filming. So I guess it's in post now. But yeah, we got that news today. And then also another quick item, Fallout, which was all in Amazon's presentation. we got word that this show has been renewed for a third season and also that season two will be dropping on the platform in December of this year.

2:31 So looking forward to seeing that. also Amazon dropped word, a little teaser for the Nicholas Cage Spider man noir, show, which that character of course was in the comics, but also most recently we saw him in the first Spider Verse film and yeah, and so basically this is going to be a live action show, that will star Nicholas Cage as the aging superhero set in the 1930s. And he's as he tries to grapple with his, his, his life as a, the one and only superhero in, in 1930s New York. So that show's going to be dropping next year first on the MGM plus platform and then it will then air the next day on Amazon Prime. So that's the update with Spider, man noir, or I guess Spider Noir I think is going to be the title of that show. also got word that the Bear season four is going to be returning on the Hulu presentation today, coming June 25th and they will be dropping all episodes at once. So I'll get around to them right before season five premieres.

3:42 And this wasn't part of the upfronts, but the Peacemaker Season 2 trailer dropped I guess, I think over the weekend. I think it was. I haven't watched it actually, but I know a lot of people have. and >> Sarah : You haven't watched it. You put it on the rundown. You put it on the rundown. So I got on early and I saw it and I was like, oh well, Will's gonna ask me if I watched it, so I might as well. I watched one minute of the two minute trailer. I, I saw too much. I saw too much. Okay, I, I just, I, within, within 10 seconds I was like telling myself, abort, abort. Like, but yeah, I, I'm going to see it. So I don't, I honestly don't want to know what's going on. Like, I really don't. And, and also like, I will tell you like the clear, clear tie ins with whatever happens in Superman.

4:48 So remember like a few months ago when there was this whole Chair saga and people pointed out that even though they spent like half a day just watching trail, chairs with their names be revealed, they were like pointing out how the MCU is basically spoiling the state fakes of all the movies that are in between Doomsday. well, in my mind I'm like, well, having watched one minute of the Peacemaker trailer, basically DC just did the same thing. They kind of just did the same thing in a way with a few of their ancillary characters who they're introducing in Superman.

5:32 So I mean, granted I've already, I've already pretty much shit on this Superman marketing campaign already because I feel like I've Seen the whole movie at least twice now. but yeah, I just, I can't, I, I just. Why? Two minutes? It's a TV show. Yeah. And, and it's a TV show that already has an audience. And you know you're gonna get more with Superman. And you also know that people like, still have yet to see Superman. So I think there could have been some much more interesting and strategic, marketing for both properties. but then again, I mean, as long as I don't think anything spoiled the most important thing, which is the opening title sequence of Peace Season 2.

6:27 >> Will: That's the, that's the important thing. Just don't spoil the opening. But anything else. Yeah, I, I don't need to see it because I'm already, I'm already locked in and invested. And so, speaking of Superman, there will be a, apparently a new trailer tomorrow. we're recording Tuesday night. So on, on Wednesday, the 14th of, of May, we will get a, a new Superman trailer. This, is the teaser poster that I think they dropped, either yesterday or today, for the, And I think they did a teaser. They did a teaser. A teaser for the trailer. To your point about marketing, but, I, I, I am not going to watch it, but I just wanted to share for our, for our, our listeners that if you do want to watch the trailer, if you're listening to our podcast tomorrow when we, or tonight as we, after we drop it, Superman, trailer is coming. And, you will be able to, if you want to watch it, you can, but don't come. I mean, I'll just be completely, transparent. We, we will. Neither one of us will probably watch it and just enjoy it when it comes in July.

7:39 >> Sarah : Yeah, we're, we're on a ban of all things Superman until July. Like, I, I, I really think, like to go back to our conversation last week, at least 50 of why I felt the way I did about Thunderbolts was because I knew very minimal information. I had seen very minimal footage. Maybe I should have led with that. Like, I'd watched one trailer about like the first trailer that came out, and that was like a good six months, five months ahead of time, and then didn't really see anything else. So like, I, I want to preserve that. However, I will warn you, it's already lost on Superman. I've already seen too much.

8:30 I already feel like I've failed. And I'm pretty sure DC is going to come after me and I'm going to be bombarded with trail of that thing. And I'm getting close with Fantastic Four, you know. Yeah, yeah, but whatever. >> Will: Yeah, but speaking of that. So they are, like, bombarding us with trailers for things that we are most likely going to go see. But then I'm still waiting for the Ironheart trailer for a show that's supposed to be dropping in June, but you know that. But I'm still. I mean, it's gotten to the place now where fans are like, yeah, where is. Where is it? And. And, you know, and fans, are doing their own promotion for this show because Disney and Marvel are just falling down. I mean, it's just like almost a month away. And I think we may m. Have gotten a teaser for it, but I don't even recall that. Maybe a poster or something. But. Yeah, so, you know, so I'm, kind of like, what's up, y' all? I mean, really?

9:37 >> Sarah : Yeah, it's not a good sign if they're not putting marketing towards a property like that. >> Will: It. >> Sarah : It bodes that they don't have faith in that property and they just want people to free, like, they have to release it because they put all that money into it. but they. They also don't. But maybe it's also something else is going on and it'll get moved, and that's why they're not doing marketing right now, because they already know that they have to move it for a different reason or a different purpose. >> Will: But. >> Sarah : Yeah, but that's a. That's a good point. That, like, even though we get bombarded by some things, there are other things where it's just like, why are you waiting so long? I mean.

10:22 >> Will: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, and not to get all conspiracy bro theory or whatever, but as I has a black female lead, are they, like, worried about the W police coming after them? Or. I mean, what is it? I mean, I just. It's just. I'm just. I'm. I'm, befuddled by why there's. There hasn't been any. Hardly anything about this show. >> Sarah : So. Yeah, well, Well, we. We will. In time. The cards will play out. >> Sarah : But that brings us to the first big topic of tonight. The Last of Us. Season two, Episode five, Feel Her Love. The. The WLF makes a dangerous discovery at a great cost. Later, Ellie must decide whether to continue with her plan and risk putting Dina in danger or give up on her quest for justice.

11:12 that's actually a very good summary of this episode, I have to say. I just. I want to Start with the Cold Open again. Because I find that the way they're utilizing the Cold opens are really, interesting mainly because it takes, it takes a bit for you to figure out that this isn't a flashback. This is the current day. we. We see the same WLF member who we saw in the Cold Open last week. And she at the time was basically inducting Isaac into the fold. but now we see her completely military out in the hospital and questioning one of the officers. And we get told a story about the hospital and the lower levels of the hospital and the fact that that This officer had to lock her men down there because it was in the air. And >> Will: They.

12:19 >> Sarah : They barricaded the lower levels. And, And I really like the whole. Like at the beginning of the conversation she mentions what is Leon. And then by the end of the conversation, says. Says I'm sorry about your son. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : And. And like, like I, that's. It's great dialogue because it's not direct, but it's also set up that you can infer that Leon was her son. So she, she had to sacrifice her son for the good of the own. And her son even wanted her to do that, based on what was going down, in those lower levels. But I guess to start us off. Will, what. What were your thoughts about this whole cold open sequence?

13:12 >> Will: Cold open sequence work worked again for me. I think that's one of the, One of the strengths of this show. especially now that we're postal and Cold opens in the past as well. But this last week and this week opening that way just definitely does for me. It, it frames the episode in a way that it leads for intrigue and wondering. Like, especially as someone who hasn't played the game, it, it helps sort of, sort of set the table for like, okay, what's going to be the, the threat or, or. Or that as we are now in Seattle.

14:02 What are, what are some of the things that these characters are going to be having to deal with? And so, you know, this, this was. I do. I do know that the, you know, quarter steps in the game transmission was different, was. Was airborne from the get. whereas they adapt. When they adapted the tv, they did change it to make. Make it first a bite. Now they have like ratcheted up the. The threat of the quarter steps by being an airborne transmission. But so, so to me that was just like, oh, okay, here, here. Here's another challenge that, that our characters are going to have to face, sort of like, you know, I guess, and I guess it is sort of like a video game in that respect where, you know, as you, as you progress in the game, different thing, different challenges do come come up. So sort of TV Watcher is sort of that same kind of thing as well.

14:54 >> Sarah : Yeah, yeah. It's also just good world building we have going on. I mean, between both of these cold opens this week and last week have to do with the WLF and nothing to do with Jackson, nothing to do with Ellie, Joel, none of that. It's honestly something that also sticks out to me with these cold opens that they have nothing to do with Abby. I mean, arguably, just because she's currently a member of the wlf, they don't talk about her. She's not, she's not seen, we haven't seen her in episodes. And yet we, we are in Seattle and, and we just, like Ellie and Dina are also piecing together what exactly is happening there. And so we, we've got in the breadcrumbs and we see it fleshed out even more here in this episode.

15:50 The, the, the battle, the war that's going on between the, I want to say scars, but that's not technically their name, the Seraphites and, and the wlf. And, and now also with this cold open, it's also like they're not just fighting each other. Remember, they, they, they still got infected and they got, they got, clickers, they have stalkers. All, all sorts of the different versions, that are coming to life are, are definitely found in Seattle. So while this war between living people still exists as well. So it, you, you're spot on with like the different levels of a game. That's what we're experiencing. And, and we, and Ellie and Dina are even experiencing that as they figure out a way to get to the hospital.

16:47 And well, Dina does because, Ellie is not school oriented. Not school oriented. I really like that. And, and which brings me to one of my first points of this episode. Isabella Merced, where have you been? And also I'm so glad you've arrived because my God, between this and I know you're going to be in Superman, which we just talked about and based on the one minute I saw, Peacemaker, FYI, are going to be in that too. But you are having a year. And to start it off like I, I, her performance is just so good this season that I don't want to say it's carrying the show because the show is really good as a whole, but it is a definite highlight for me so far.

17:43 >> Will: Yeah. Yeah, I. I agree. that. That. Honestly, that was so. I. I have to be honest. I was Feel this episode after the cold open, and I like. I like the opening moments there with Ellie and. And. And Dina with the triangulation and. And some of the. You know, there were some good moments, but her. Her. And it has. It has nothing to do with performances because. And that's why I want to make it very clear. Her performance, whenever she was talking, for example, jumping ahead to when they were walking down there and. And she. She was sharing her. Her. Her backstory as far as the who. The first person she killed.

18:27 >> Sarah : Yeah. >> Will: Yeah. I mean, that worked. I mean that her performance really took just a ex. Exposition dump and. And made it like I was dialed in. >> Sarah : Yeah. >> Will: but the rest of the episode, I don't know, it just, It was. It felt empty to me in some. Some regards where usually I feel like there's a tension or. Or just escal. Escalation of things, but it just. I don't know. I just. It just. Just felt very artif. Hollow for. For whatever reason, but it's not close to the performances. >> Sarah : It's interesting you say that because I will be honest.

19:09 Like, after first watching it, like, that night, I was like, this is probably one of the weaker episodes. But the more I think about this episode, the more I actually think that there are some. There are some. They. They are doing things for. With, like, intention. And. And I think that. I don't think it's the best in any way, shape or form, but I do think that it's not. It's not awful. Hollow might be a good word for it. It might just be like. Like there. Because we have yet to see Ellie finally meet.

19:58 Meet Abby again. We're just. We're just like, okay, it's day two in Seattle, and. And I'm just gonna call this out. I think it was very noticeable, more so in. Than any other episode I've seen of this series. How convenient things were. Yeah, like, they. Convenient. Like Jesse shows up at the most convenient time to stop the stalker from, killing Ellie. and then all of the other ones as well from. Because there was like, maybe right around 10 in there with them. I don't know. But between that, then they managed to conveniently get into the park where. Where they witness what we actually witness.

20:50 how. How the. How the Seraphites treat the WLF members. I mean, we saw the aftermath of it, but to actually see the blade and the Hanging and how that all works. It was like, whoa. Yeah, yeah, whoa. But, but then, but then they conveniently escape from m. Them as well because they realize like, and then, and, and then they have to separate and Ellie conveniently finds her. So I, I agree. Like, to me that was one of the reasons why I've. This episode I don't think works as well as it should or could have is because of all of the plot conveniences that occur.

21:34 >> Will: Yeah. Yeah. I mean this is the first time. I mean, yes, there's always plot armor in these shows, but to me it just really just felt very apparent this week. And you're right. I mean it's not that. I'm not saying it's a bad episode, but, but in when I'm, when I'm measuring it against other. Within the, within the live action version of the the Last of Us, this just to me. This just to me just felt like it was. And, and it was just sort of a set piece. It was just getting us from A to B to C. And, and I, I don't know.

22:14 Yeah, kind of. I mean there's some, there's some. They explore some things. Like, to your, to your point, one of the reasons why the Cold Open works so well is because we do have, we do have a parent who is, who is making that choice that Joel and Ellie had before. So as far as choosing the good of the mini versus to go to the one. So whenever, you know, so whenever those things were happening, I was rocking with the show. That was where I, Even in this episode I was like, I'm, I'm dialed in. >> Will: But then, but then the stuff in the. Like I said, when the clickers, the. I guess when Ellie and Dina were in the. The smart. The stalkers were in the, in the warehouse and stuff, it just like I felt like, okay, we saw. Yeah. I don't know, it just, it just felt repetitive at this point.

23:10 >> Sarah : Yeah. Just felt like another, another scene to show how our two lead characters, our two heroes, are. Are just finding like getting themselves put in these worst situations and will conveniently get out of them. Like we. That's not, that's not what this show is about. This show needs. There needs to be more human conflict. I mean some of the. What was it like episode three this season? We didn't see an infected at all. And I was like, this is great. This is great. But now between this sequence and the sequence last week with the train, it's like, okay, so how many times will Dina and Ellie figure out a plan to get from point A to point B, but have to go through an area that WLF is not protecting for an obvious reason.

24:07 >> Will: Exactly. >> Sarah : Like, I, I, completely agree with you, like, to that extent that this, this is a very. And, and why I say I can't say for sure that this is about getting from point A to point B, because they backtrack because they, they're just gonna end up back at the theater at the end of this. I mean, who knows what Nora ends up telling her? because she's dead. Either way. I mean, in one way, and, and honestly, either way is agony, arguably. So, so because the core steps and, that actress, you know, if you're gonna go out, you might as well go out like that. I, I thought she did a good job of, of initially trying to, like, say, I agree that was awful. I don't think you should have seen it. And then when she does the whole, like, yeah, but Joel, got what he deserved. It was like.

25:08 And, and I like it because of Bella's reaction. M. Because, you see, Bella's reaction means she fell for it just the way I think. I think some of the, like, viewers were falling for it too. Was just like, was like, okay, okay. But then that flip, and it catches her so off guard, she doesn't even shoot her. And in time. And then that leads to the chase down to level B2, which we'd already known was where all of the cordyceps were. But, But I will. As cool as it was to see Ellie go full, full murderer, for lack of a better word, torturer. I, I, I did leave this, this episode thinking to myself, are they gonna explain how Ellie will conveniently escape the hospital from that place, to go to the theater, return back to the theater, which she knows is where Jesse took Dina, and they're meeting up with, Tommy.

26:18 >> Will: Right, right. >> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, that's, Yeah. I, and I also, I'm just gonna say I kind of wish it was Tommy and not Jesse. I kind of wish it was Tommy. Not just because I was. I, I, I, want to see Tommy. Like, I, I, we haven't explored too much of his feelings about all of this. Right, right. >> Will: Right. >> Sarah : So, so we're, we're headed into episodes. Episode, ah, seven. And, and that's the penultimate episode of the season. And yet we have not spent a lot of time with Tommy and, and he arguably has is just as many complex emotions about the loss of his brother as Ellie, if not more so, because of the Whole town situation and, and his. His complex relationship with Joel from the get go. So.

27:15 So I. I don't know, going into next week, which I inadvertently saw a thumbnail. So, I'm. I can't. I'm pretty suspicious that next week will be a full on flashback episode. I'm just saying. >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we got the ending, of course, and you know. But yeah, I. I saw. Yeah, I think. I don't know if I watched the, Did I watch? No, I did not. But I. I have seen some. Seen a few still photos and yeah, it's flashback. Yeah. >> Sarah : Yeah. So. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : So I don't know when we're gonna get Tommy present day is what I'm. What I'm saying. But, Yeah, so, I mean, I mean really, I just kind of marathon ran through everything that happened and I. I mean, unless there was anything else.

28:10 I mean, you did raise a good point about the col. Opening, like the sac. A parent sacrificing their child for the better of others. I don't know if you intentionally said it or not, but you did say that like Joel and Ellie had that choice. Ellie did not have a choice. >> Will: No, no, no, no, no, no. I guess I may zip through to what I was saying. The Joel. The choice that Joel had with. With Ellie is what I'm saying. >> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, yeah. The choice Jewel made for Ellie. that. That is, what the record shows. yeah. So thanks.

28:51 And yeah, >> Will: Yeah, but I mean, really, like I said, it was. It was. It was. It was m. Again, when I say it left me hollow. Left me kind of me. It's just. I'm, judging it against everything else in the last of us. And there's plenty. There's. There's like we. As we just discussed. I mean, there's good moments where they do get into the. The More into the. The choice. And then of course, you know, Ellie just going full on ballistic, to, you know, with. With torches, torturing, Nora before. You know. You know, I guess it was one of those things just like I'm gonna get the answer or I'm, just gonna draw this out like you guys did with Joel.

29:36 >> Sarah : Exactly. Yeah. >> Will: Yeah. So. Yeah. So not very sympathetic character at this point, but you know, it's. But you can understand, you know, it goes. It does get to the discussion that Elliot and. And Dina had as they. As they were walking as far as like justice and revenge and all that kind of stuff. So they're, you know, so there were the themes of what we have dealt with all, all season. But, but, you know, but like I said, I think, you know, it was the short. I think it was the shortest episode for the season, so I think it did what it needed to do. And we'll get the, we'll go to the, flashback episode next week. The penultimate. Yeah. I will say one thing, though. I think we're now a few episodes in, with Pedro not being on the show.

30:26 And it, I didn't. How does. I don't want to. It's, it is. It is. Thankfully, Isabella Merced is just killing it. Bella's killing it. But, but I do. And you know, I think a few weeks back I was like, I felt like this was almost like a second pilot when we were discussing the, the post Joel world and, and, and some, you know, so now that we're a few episodes in, I, I, I do go back to that comment and say, and, and you know, it's, yes, it's the same show and maybe pilot's not the right word, but I do feel like it's like, it is like a reset into another chapter of, of, of, clearly it's another chapter, for this story. And, and so I, so as still trying to get myself oriented around that.

31:21 >> Sarah : So you still m. You miss Pedro and think that, his absence has, has left like a big, a big, ah, hole in this for me. >> Will: It does. >> Sarah : Yeah. I can, it's, it's hard for me to say for, for sure. If, I, I will say that I think. Hey, hey, hey. I, if, if you're not gonna go there, I will go there. I honestly, I don't have as big of a problem with Pedro not being around as I do with. I think people are giving, Bella Ramsey a bit too much credit.

32:01 I don't think she's as good this season as she was last season. M. So, So I guess I could make the argument that people saying that this season is not as good because Pedro gets killed off in episode two. Well, I think what they're missing is Bella works really good with Pedro. I think that's, and even though I will say the chemistry between Ellie and Dina, really good. Really good. But that's not what this show is about in some moments. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : So I, I just, I, I, I feel like people are giving her a bit too much credit. And I don't like, even in this episode, I, I gave her one shout out, but by the end of it, she, she's, she's too dead in the eyes sometimes. Like and that's what gets me is where I, I love actors who I can see their emotions play out in the eyes, and for whatever reason, she is too dead in there, where I just, I'm just like, I don't know how you're feeling, but this is how you're behaving, which, in one episode it's being a complete brat. In another episode, she's a complete liar.

33:25 So, So I don't. I don't know. but, but yeah, I, I. And, and I will. I'm just gonna put this out here. No, I've never played the game. We all know this. But I have seen all the couch cutscenes. and I do know what happens, and I do have fondness for the story. Overall. Both. Both, Game One and Game Two, everything that viewers who have no experience with the game, specifically Game Two, are going through with all of their emotions is exactly what a lot of people playing the game felt as well. >> Will: Yeah, completely. Yeah, I think, yeah, that. That is completely. Yeah. What I, what I think I am feeling now as someone who's just experiencing this world via live action. But, I have read a few. I have. I have read some, things about it. Maybe they even mentioned that on.

34:20 Oh, no, they didn't mention on the official podcast. But, but I have seen that sentiment out there. It's like, yeah, just welcome to whatever all the game players felt, part two. >> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, it's just like. It's just like Game of Thrones, when watching, watching that show, a lot of people pointed out like, oh, you finally got to that episode. Cool, welcome. That was me 10 years ago. So it's just the. When you have characters and they, they die, of course there's going to be absence and holes and everything, but it's just. It's just if the characters that remain, if you're still curious, which. And.

35:07 And that's another thing. They're very much focused on Ellie and Dina. We've got a lot of led. I already mentioned earlier, haven't seen Tommy. No. No Abby sighting at all. None. Like, we're learning Isaac has been in two scenes, maybe like three scenes. So there's a lot of characters. And I think, I think to your point about the whole, like, second pilot, what we've gotten sent Post Joel Post Jackson is a lot of world building. The world of Seattle, this battle between the WLF and the Seraphites. And, And I think, I think that it's a lot of setup.

35:52 that that is really going to. Is all working towards. Not the end of the season, but it's mainly working towards what will happen in season three. Three. >> Will: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Which is. Which I think, is. I think as Bellamer said, this share some info about when they're starting they're going to film that. So it might be. It's going to be a moment before we get to season three. Ah, maybe like 2027. So based on schedules and everything else. So. >> Sarah : Well, yep. I'm very curious about season three. >> Will: Yeah. Yeah. >> Sarah : But. All right, well that leads us into Andor episode seven, Messenger. Episode eight. Where are you? what is episode eight called?

36:41 >> Will: Who. >> Sarah : Who are you? Who are you? Episode nine. Welcome to the Rebellion. now, now we already agreed we were gonna go through this, plot point by plot point and we're just going to start with the Gorman event. so, so Will, what are your thoughts about this event? >> Will: you would have to start with Gorman, but I, I, Well, I'll just step back just for. Well, I will say this about the Gorman event. So whenever we learned that this block of episodes was going to be the episodes top line was 2 BBY.

37:30 So fans of Star wars who, who watch Rebels are familiar with it. That that was the year that Mon Motha has leaves a speech as gives a speech and leads to rebellion. and if folks who watched that, this, who watched Rebels is fully familiar with it. I know as I, After I watched these three episodes, I immediately went to watch Rebels again because I wanted to see this episode 318, called Secret Cargo. and go. Go check it out if you are interested in seeing what she says, whatever she is finally with the Rebellion, and pulling everyone together as far as the Alliance. So I, you know, so this episode, you know, so this scene, the whole. Everything about it basically fully.

38:29 It was as, as. As much as I imagined how bad it was going to be. They, it. It from the emotional standpoint, from the The whole setup with it. As far as an episode. You know, we've, We've. The preceding episodes have like built up to this as far as the arcs. As far as we saw the, you know, I, I laid, you know, they laid the foundation with the With the propaganda machine as far as just talking about the You know, the gore. The gore. And And you know, we see it in the beginning of this EP with the media, you know, parroting the. The. The scripted line as far as, you know, the, the insurgencies and the people there and all that, so all the things were just building up to this moment. And then of course, both part of Gas and Lutheran using their, you know, the isb, having their plan to like, get this, to set this moment off. And then of course Lutheran also doing his things as far as wanting the wanting this event to happen.

39:36 and even, you know, he would even been disappointed if like, by some chance that Mon Motha was successful in the Senate to like, you know, be able to get the legislation passed to like, get this, you know, get the Empire, you know, off the, the, you know, setting things in motion to, to mind the cocaine. So everything about it was just executed flawlessly. And, and, and it had the, it had the, it had the, the visceral brutality of it all as far as, you know, as they were lining everything up and in the prior episodes and then basically putting, putting the barricades up and just basically marching these poor souls into a kill box. And so everything about that, it just worked really well to the point where even after, after, you know, watching episode eight, I, I, I, I, I, you know, Cassian was leaving and you know, shed that tear. I was, I was, I was doing that too because I, I was truly, truly captured the, the emotions of, of the moment and just the, these, the intensity of it all. And, and I think it was just, and the reason why it was such, was set up so well that when it did finally happen, it had the emotional impact that, that, that it was intended to have.

41:11 >> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, it, it had an impact on people. >> Will: Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, I know, I know. Commercials messed up your, your experience with it. >> Sarah : Well, I don't know if I, that wasn't the only thing. I mean, I, I have Disney plus with commercials, so it kept interrupting and every time we'd go back to it, I would see their cereal standing in the middle of the whole scene, just looking out bewildered and, and, and shots firing, but never hitting Cyril and then, or Cassie and just, just like wandering around also never getting shot. It's like, like that's the thing with Star Wars.

41:58 The Stormtroopers and the Imperial, they, the Empire, they are not good marksmen because the main characters never get shot. The people who aren't. It never ceases. So, so there was that. And also I, I, I, I know what you're saying about the setup and everything. Setup didn't work for me mainly because I guess I just, there was something, how it all played out in the, these episodes. I like a portion of it, mainly the propaganda stuff about it. I thought that was Pretty smart and an interesting angle, but. But by the end, where even rye lands, goes in there and. And is looking around and it's like, oh, oh, well, this is a trap. And he starts to warn people. Nobody takes them seriously by that point. So I'm just thinking to myself, I'm like, oh, you're all gonna die. So, like, I'm just curious of how Cassie is gonna get out of this the whole time. Like, I don't know. There was something about it, which. Which for me, who doesn't know I haven't watched Rebels, you know, this.

43:11 I. I don't have that much stake in the whole history here. I also, in terms of production, I thought it was really weird or really strange how they didn't play any. Any sort of instrumental. Like, yes, you heard. You heard the rioting calls. which also changed halfway through. And then I was just left trying to figure out, well, why didn't you lead with that one? Like, your actual, like, home language. That would have been more like, I think more of a. Of a, of a war cry. But no, they led with a different one, which led me down to different. I spiraled about for a different reason that I'm not going to get into. But. But yeah, there. There was stuff about it where it didn't work. Now.

44:05 Now, the. The more interesting thing to me is, of course, zero. And that's another reason why I'm, mad, is because they killed him, but they also killed him in the best way possible. Like, I. Like the. I. I've heard some people talk about this. >> Will: The. >> Sarah : The fact that this character we have spent so much time with for a season and a half, and we've never really liked him. We know he's working on the wrong team, but he's able to, in this. These three episodes too, or these two episodes that he's a part of, at least become woke and aware.

44:48 And then the disillusionment, I. I thought was really interesting. And I also, I. I honestly wish we had. I'm sorry. You guys can say I'm cold. I am dead inside. But honestly, I. Again, I find what they do with the Empire so much more interesting than anything else going on in this show where I was. I was taken aback when we even saw Deirdre break down at the end of the episode. Like, I was like, why aren't we spending more time exploring what's going on there? I mean, you see bits and pieces, and maybe that's why I like it where it's not overdone. And overly communicated what's going on? But, but I was just like, okay, so, so you, you do know what you're doing is like, what's happening is bad.

45:44 Okay, okay, so what does that mean? What does that mean for you as a character, though? and the same thing with Cyril. So, like, I just did a full stream of consciousness. I hope, I hope y' all were able to follow everything I have to say. but, but Will wasn't chiming in to take me off course, so. No, what I'm doing right now. >> Will: No, no, I, I, I was, I, I think you're right in the sense to your point. They, what they did, and I think this is why I think it works so well, is they do make, they don't make these just traditional mustache twirling villains.

46:27 >> Sarah : Right? >> Will: And, and they really did show the impact of this event. You know, for example, with Cyril, you know, he, you know, once he, you know, he, once he realized, like, you know, we go back to episode seven, and in episode eight, as far as just the set pieces with the event, like, whenever he is, you know, whenever he is on there, and, and whenever Cyril starts to question, dead real, like, he realized, he started to realize, like, you're not telling me everything. >> Sarah : Right. >> Will: And, and, and so it's that realization, like, oh, all this time, Cyril's like a very law and order kind of guy. You know, he's, yeah, he, he.

47:11 And, and, and it's that pat. It is, it's, but it, but he also had, I guess his, his moral center of order is not, you know, he starts to see through the, you know, he's starting to see that he's being manipulated. He's starting to see, like, wait a minute, they're doing these things. And even the person that I love, that I'm in love with also, it's been manipulated me. And, and, you know, he's been playing along all this time, but then he backs the questions. It's like, you know, whenever she, like, says this, when Deadra says, this year, good things are waiting for us, we will be for work rewarded. And then he, like, question, he's like, for what? What have we accomplished? >> Sarah : Yeah.

47:51 >> Will: And so, yeah, so, so to your point, why. That's why that storyline is working and it's working for you, is because they're making them fully realized people instead of just like mustache villains who are just evil for evil's sake. >> Sarah : Right, right. Which, which they showed with the other members. >> Will: Oh, yeah. Oh, Captain Kaido. Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Sarah : And it was even more highlighted, I think, in the, In the next episode, welcome to the Rebellion. Because, I mean, I pointed out all the conveniences that occurred during the last of us.

48:34 And, And as much as I. I did, like. I did really like, welcome to the Rebellion, but there were a lot of conveniences happening. I was like, I don't know why we. Like, this is. I don't feel any urgency right now. I knows she's gonna leave. I know. Like, like, it just. And. And I was just, like, thinking in my head. They just spent arguably six episodes, if not more. All these episodes kind of. Kind of showing. And we were talking about this a little bit last week with, Pat. Cigar. Pat Sager, whatever. Pat. I'm gonna call him Pat. Patrick. Yeah, I'm gonna call him Pat.

49:21 Like, how strategic the Empire was being, especially with Gorman, and how, like, the spy and the espionage that was occurring last week and then the build up here where by the time people figured out what was really going on, it was all too late. Like, they had won. Well, in episode nine, it just felt like every. Like, like, like we're just gonna also show you how stupid the Empire can be and how easy it is to get around all of these safeguards they have in place that conveniently go awry, when they want to get Mon Mothma, like, to give her speech and then get out of there without any problems. I was just like, what are we doing here?

50:12 Like, like, two steps for forward, three steps back. It's just like, be. Because it's also, like, to your point, about, like, they're creating the villains. That's not Mustach. Well, Cyril's dead now, and Deidra we don't see at all in the next episode. Like, like, there's another reason why those characters work as villains is because we see. Seen them. We've gone along with them. Like, like, it allows them to get flushed back. And now in episode nine, the villain is the emperor. Is the Empire.

50:52 Like, it's more of a collective, as opposed to these. These characters who you can truly like point at and be like, I don't like you, even though I understand where you're coming from. >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, as far as welcome to the Rebellion, I think the. The. I. I get what you're saying about the, conveniences. And. And they were. But I think, you know, that, you know, I think Lutheran and. Yeah, because, you know, like, here's what, you know, Lutheran set a lot of these things in motion, way back, you know, for Example having Lot. You know, having Lonnie's, The empty m. The. The mole in the isb, have his agent be part of Bell Organis team. You know, and he, you know, so making sure that that per. You know, it was.

51:43 All the things were like set up so that as the tent. Because I. You know, for me, episode nine had had a lot of good tension and stuff. Even though I knew the outcome, all the execution of it was just to. Yeah, it was just a What I would call payoff for all the things that have led to that moment. So. Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. They were. They were clear conveniences of. But. But to me it was sort of like is. Here's the. You know, they have been looking forward to this moment and of course it. And even to the point where when Bill Organa and. And my month that were talking, that he's like, you know, I won't see you on Yavin because I gotta stay back here and continue the work here in the Senate to like.

52:33 Because the time. The Things aren't yet right for us to. To strike. As far as the. The Alliance. So for me, it was just a really good. Yes, there was conveniences, but it. But it was earned conveniences because they had laid the foundation for it. >> Sarah : what else do you want to talk about? >> Will: well, I mean, there's obviously the protagonist himself. I mean Cassian and. And his. His journey. you know, when we. When we first see. See them on. In episode seven, to go back to the messenger. and his role as far as, The question of whether or not, you know, something that kept going up back and forth with. In that episode is. Is whether or not it's fate or destiny. you know, we do finally do get some.

53:26 You know, we get the. The force healer and You know, in the. In the episode. In this episode. And. And. And. And you know, and I like. I like Cassian's reaction to it because not only was. He's, you know, skeptical of it, because, you know, he. You know, he remembers back to, you know, when Marvel was ill and they tried to use these force healers and stuff. It was just like a scam and all that. So. And then whenever she sees that, you know, whenever she touches him and. And. And you know, and it helps provide her clarity and stuff. Even though at that moment it didn't provide clarity for Cassian, it did provide some clarity to. For Bix as far as, you know, that his.

54:11 Their journeys are not. Their journeys are in Order for the rebellion to go forward. She's, gonna. They're gonna have to sacrifice their relationship, in order for him to. To continue the. The path towards rebellion. Because, I mean, all throughout the episode, Cassian's like, I'm done. I'm tired. I'm ready to just bell on this kind of stuff. You know, he's done with Lutheran. He's done with it all. >> Sarah : And. >> Will: And so I really liked how they. How they framed that to. To really, you know, show, You know, you know, again, to go. One of the themes that I've. That I've seen throughout this series is. Is. Has been the theme of sacrifice. And, you know, so of course we saw the sacrifice with M. Mon and episode nine, as far as you finally hit the realization that she, you know, when given that speech, she was, you know, basically sacrificing her career, her family, you know, other. Other, Other things. But, you know, for the rebel, for, you know, for the cause, and Cassian was having to do the same thing too. And then, of course, when we get to. To the final episode, when Big Sleep gives him that.

55:22 Gives him that. That. That message, it. It definitely, you know, really, you know, reinforces, you know, that. You know, that there's no way that. That for now they're gonna have to like, So she's gonna have, you know, they're gonna have to sacrifice their happiness for. For. For the calls, for the. For the win. And so for me, it just really, really resonated with that. And also. I know, I know last week you were saying as far as it was hard for you to, you know, get invested with Cassian and Bix, as far as. I'm paraphrasing here, of course, but, you know, you thought they were there the moment at the end of Rogue One. Was he. Whether or not he was cheating or not on picks. I mean, clearly he wasn't. He's just, She.

56:04 >> Sarah : Was cheating on Vix. >> Will: Well, yeah, but, >> Sarah : I didn't know how much time, how much I could spend invested in their dynamic when I knew she wasn't around for Rogue One. And so I felt. Me. I felt more like, oh, so. So they knew viewers would suspect that Bix is gonna die. Like I was suspecting by the end of this. This show because she's not in Rogue One. So instead we're gonna do this other thing and randomly. And I'm gonna say randomly because I. I thought it kind of came out of nowhere. I mean, I. I'm. I'm not Stupid. I. I can. I did watch the episodes, so I do know the foreshadowing that they did, but I don't think they did enough of it. And I don't think it was very clear.

56:55 But this is, again, a problem I've had with this whole relationship since the first episode. This season is where it has felt very like, I don't know if I'm supposed to be rooting for you guys or against each other, because in one moment you're kissing, in the next moment you're. You're fighting. And, there's a lot of, like, anger and distrust and. And Bix had to work through her ptsd, and it seemed like, in a way, she got what she needed, and then she bailed. Like. Like. And I get it, the whole sacrifice, but Cassian didn't sacrifice it. Bix made that choice for him. >> Will: And. >> Sarah : And it's also like. Like, we. We get introduced to Cassie, and he's trying to find a sister, so. So now he's gonna try to also be trying to find Bix for three episodes, but he's not gonna find her. Like, I don't know where I'm going with this.

57:54 >> Will: I don't. >> Sarah : But, yes. >> Will: Yeah. No, I mean, to your. I mean, to. What you said there was very important. I mean, she. She knew that he could not make the choice, so she had to make that choice because otherwise he would not. He would not stick around and go. And, you know. And the episode kind of ends with that, with, you know, whenever they want him to, come to, you know, see the reactivation of K2. It was like, you know, they address him Captain. Captain Andor. So, I mean, it was. It was, you know, so they. She had, you know, she had to nudge him to. To do it. so. >> Sarah : Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

58:35 I. I'm not arguing that at all. It just. I thought it was kind of an easy way out for the writers to. To make sure she wasn't in the. In the next three episodes or in Rogue One. sure. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : And to resolve this relationship, which we should have been rooting for, but I have been questioning this whole time, so I was more on board with Deidre and Cyril. >> Will: Well, yeah. >> Sarah : Better. >> Will: Yeah. I mean, as far as relationships go in the. In this series, they. You know, they definitely. I think that's part of whenever she was having her panic attack. You know, not only did she. And I think she had. You know, I think Dedra did have some realization, too.

59:22 She. She does have some blood on her hands because you know, she was thinking Kaido would be the one to like, you know. Yeah, you know, he had a purpose there. But at the end of the day, you know, he would find out, told her it was like, look, I'm here, but you're going to be the one that's giving the order here. It's going to be you that's going to have the blood on your hands, not me. I'm just falling. You know, he's doing the Nuremberg defense. I'm just like, I'm just here. I'm just following orders. >> Sarah : Yeah, well, I don't know. There's something in the way she, they performed it and portrayed it that I felt like there was something else going on than just like I wasn't supposed to press the button. Like, oh, like which, which we had spent so much time with Cyril and that's why everyone understood like the, the, the irony with his out out outcome and everything and the who are you? Of it all.

1:00:17 But, but with her, I was like, if we had just spent a little more time with her, we could then see a bit more of the layers that were going on. And arguably, even with them as a couple, we got barely any scenes between them as a couple to too. So. And, and like I said earlier, maybe, maybe I was more on board with that because I feel like sometimes with Star wars writing they belabor things they over to explain things they over explain. And arguably this, this can be said for a lot of like, like I want to say fantasy genre shows. I mean I think Game of Thrones does it too. But, but there, there's a belabor of, of points where it's like, okay, you've explained to me that three times in three different ways.

1:01:13 But, but you're allowing no nuances or, or little nuances. Like, and maybe that's why I have a problem like knowing where this is going. Like. And yes, I'm supposed to be on board for the journey, but I don't feel like they're fully taking advantage of the, the journey and exploring the nuances as much as they could. So much as like, I mean Will spoiled the Gorman thing for me back in episode one, so I was like, oh, so that's where we're going.

1:01:54 So, so how involved? And then to see that play out, I don't, I don't know. It's just. It feels more like we're being told history than actually sitting in the moments and sitting with some of the people where we can, we can really feel. Feel it. I Think I got a little bit more out of that during season one than I am this season. >> Will: M. Well, I hear it. I, I, I, I, I, I, I could see that point. especially romantic relationships. I see. I think for me, I do think that they did some, I mean, it was in a weird, you know, they're very Cyril Deadra way of like, showing affection and stuff, which, whenever she like, laid that, hey, when she laid that haymaker, that big kiss on him there in the hall in episode seven, I was just like, wait a minute, this is like, you know, you know, this is, this is coming from the lady who told her, you know, told Zero to turn off the lights.

1:02:50 So, so, yeah, so, yeah, so we did see those nuance and, and on the nose moments in their relationship. so I, I would take a little exception that they would. We didn't get a glimmer of their, you know, we didn't get layers of, of their, of their relationship there. >> Sarah : I didn't say we didn't at all. I just said like I was trying to more make the point that because there was few and far between, I felt like I took more of an interest and curiosity of what's really going on there than I did with Bix and Andor. >> Will: Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I hear what you're saying. I mean, I guess for Bix and Andor, for me, as far as their relationship, it seemed, it seemed believable to me for two people who are trying to have a normal, trying to have a normal as, as normal a relationship as freedom fighters, you know, and people who are in this, in this, in this situation can have, with all the constraints that, that, that surround it. So, you know, every, every time they were, they would try to have a woman, like when he was there, just even on Yavin at the beginning of episode seven, they were trying to have a nice moment and then Wilman shows up. So it's just like, you know, there was, they, they had their moments, but it, you know, it wasn't like the, I guess, typical TV romance or whatever, for lack of a better description of it.

1:04:21 But yeah, but I mean, but you know, but to your point too, I think, you know, with Deadra and her, her, panic, you know, let's go back to that for a moment. I think the other thing too was just her realization that Cyril was probably killed out, out there on the Right, you know, in the, when the, when the things went down in the streets. So I think it was a very, Again, I Think very layered reaction, to. To many things. And maybe her also realization that she also got played. Just thinking about some of her, you know, her, her transmissions of Paragus throughout the episode. >> Sarah : well, this was her idea from the get go. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : Whether. Whether it played out and, and sometimes. And maybe that's really what we were seeing with her is like I had this idea.

1:05:07 >> Will: Yep. >> Sarah : This is how it's playing out. Like, like when I had the idea, it seemed like I couldn't put faces to people or anything. it like. Like there, there's. I'm. I'm arguably the most curious. I'm thing I am, interested in seeing in these last three episodes is what they do with that character because they have spent so much time over the course of two seasons with her. And for Cyril to be gone M. You better get more than like one episode with her. Like, she needs to go out in a very similar way that like we need some satisfying way for her to go out. on the same lines of Cyril. Now I don't think they can drop Ciro's death, but, they. They need to. They need to have a full circle moment. I mean, I will be honest though, because I saw some like stills and I seen like Cyril banged up and, and I, and I put down together the rundown way before watching the episodes. A part of me was like, oh, is Cyril gonna join the rebellion?

1:06:24 Is that what. But, but see, hear me out. Like, honestly, there were a lot of moments where he clearly wanted to. He clearly was like, like going to. But then he sees Cassie and that like that was such a good scene. So like, that was a good thing. Like, I can, I can have my grievances with this show and everything, but, when I do like something, I really do like it, about andor as a whole. So. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : And then it keeps me through to watch the final three episodes. So. >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree that that was a good scene. I mean, just because seeing him short circuit and then all that was just happening around him and then, you know, he gets locked laser focused again when he sees Cassian and it's the brutality of that fight. And then he also has.

1:07:19 And then he short circuits again when Cassian's like, who are you? Because, you know. Yeah. And. >> Sarah : Yeah, and he has the moment where he, he like you. You can see it. Like, it's beautifully acted. It's. It. It's so. It's so good that, it's so. But I'm also. I'm not sad that we don't get any more Cyril because it's such a satisfying ending for him. Like, I'm like, if you're gonna take him out, that's the way to take him out. >> Will: That's the way to take him out. >> Sarah : So perfect. so, yeah, anyway, I think that's a great. >> Will: That's a great place to finish our discussion tonight.

1:07:59 >> Sarah : Yep. And on that note, Will, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you. >> Will: Yes, you can find me on all the socials at, Will and Polk. W I L L M M P O L L K And you can. >> Sarah : Find me there too@sjvillmont sjblm m o n T. Please follow our crew on X, formerly known as Twitter, @cedanerd on blue sky at scenanerd and friend us on Facebook. Follow us on Instagram and threads at scene,_n_nerd and visit our website www.score. but most importantly, rate, follow and comment on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube or wherever your podcast. Good night. Geek out. You're welcome.

1:08:53 Sa.