From Hell’s Kitchen to the Apocalypse: Daredevil: Born Again & TLOU Reviewed

0:00 >> Will: Music >> Sarah : Greetings Nerds, This is Scene N Nerd I'm your host, Sarah Belmont, and with me, as always, is our Mr. Producer, Will Polk How are you doing tonight, Will? >> Will: Doing very well, Sarah. How you doing this Thursday evening? >> Sarah : I'm, doing all right. I'm here. >> Will: Yeah, I'm here as well. Looking forward to talking some Daredevil Born Again penultimate episode with you tonight. >> Sarah : Yep, yep, we will be talking about that. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : but first we have to go through some of these headlines, which include that the Last of Us has been officially renewed for a third season.

0:42 I, I'm so shocked. I, I, I, like, this is one of the headlines that I just mock because I'm like, why do I feel like that's already been, like, happened or why that's already, that seed has been planted? Because I felt like coming off of the first season, a lot of the discussion was there's no way they can do the second game in one season. And I feel like we were told they're gonna stretch this across four seasons in total. >> Will: Yeah, I think, yeah, that's, I remember that, being, yeah, it was gonna be a four season thing, but I guess, you know, it was one of those things too. But they never officially like, approved the third season.

1:30 >> Sarah : Right. >> Will: Even though, but, but at least we got it. You know, it's the little thing that most series do this these days anyway, with shows that, that we know are going to be like, are clear hits and so we got the word. >> Sarah : Yeah, well, yes and no. I mean, there's, there's been shows. Why do I feel like there was a recent show that got renewed for two seasons, like right away? >> Will: Yeah. Oh, yeah, actually, the one we're going to talk about later tonight, also, Spider man, your friendly neighborhood Spider man got renewed before for, seasons two and three before, before it even aired. So it does happen. And Star Trek. Yeah, Star Trek.

2:12 Strange New Worlds has done that also. >> Sarah : Yeah. And, and Daredevil got renewed for its second season before it premiered. >> Will: Yep, yep, yep. >> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah. So, so why the last of us waited so long? I don't know exactly. Do they remember the numbers that they did during the first season? I think they should have picked up on this sooner, but. >> Will: Exactly. But hey, I'm looking, I'm looking forward to us starting talking about it next week. It's, it's here, it's finally here to Sunday night. >> Sarah : It is, it will, few more days, a few more hours. and then later in the summer, we will finally resume our peacemaker discussion with its season two premiere on August 21st.

2:58 >> Will: Yeah, yeah. HBO this weekend I guess did their, I guess, second quarter sizzle reel. And yeah, had a little, little teaser there with Peacemaker. So we got our first shots of of season two. So looking, looking forward to that. And of course, I guess, I want to say I might be making this up or maybe I remember reading this somewhere some, some months back. But there is, I want to say there was an element of the upcoming Superman movie that is going to have a role in, in the second season of Peacemaker. So that's, that's why. Yeah, and that's why they're releasing it. >> Sarah : Yeah, yeah. Didn't it didn't Soups kind of show up at the end of Peacemaker One?

3:43 yeah, Justice League kind of. >> Will: It was the D.C. e. The DCEU. Justice League. Yeah, yeah, they all did. Yeah. Yeah. >> Sarah : Interesting. I, I, I'm just gonna put this out here right now. If anybody spoils the opening credit sequence of Peacemaker Season 2, plague on your house. >> Will: Okay, we riot. >> Sarah : I, that is the one thing that shall not be spoiled until you turn on that first episode. Okay, so, so I'm also talking to James Gunn here. You better not let it scene of that be leaked into any of these trailers or promotional stuff. No, no, because the anticipation for Peacemaker Season 2 opening credit sequence. Come on.

4:33 >> Will: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We cannot have that spoiled at all. >> Sarah : No, no, it's, it was too classic the first time and we know it's going to be something different, but man, all right. And that leads us to more rumors about Brad, Pitt's production company Plan B Entertainment is currently talking with the creators of Adolescence about a possible second season. What are your thoughts on this, Will? >> Will: I really hope they do not do this. I mean it, it, you know, it was a limited series. It's a, a solid story. the you know, the presidents, the co, presidents of Plan B did share that, when they were talking with the director Philip Bartini. and also, you know, Stephen Graham also was the co, creator of the show. they were looking to do something. A quote from the co President Gardner said that they were looking to widen the aperture, stay true to the, to the DNA and, and not be repetitive talking about season one. But then she didn't reveal too, of course she didn't reveal anything more about that. But honestly, this reminds me a lot of some of the discussions we had, last, last year, I guess last year about like Shogun, because originally it was Going to be a limited series. You know, it was only, you know, based on the one book and because it was ah, critical

6:06 and an audience hit, the Hulu FX decided to make a second season. but honestly, even if they were to make Adolescence like a, an anthology or something, I, I, to me, you hit a home run with this show. I don't, I don't even, I don't, don't mess with it. I, I, like, you know, I just really think they should just stick with what's, stick with what they have and, and, and not, not mess with a good thing. But you know, Netflix will do what, what they're gonna do, so we'll see. >> Sarah : Yeah, I, I'm torn. A, part of me agrees with you and a part of me is like, no, they, they could, they could totally do like there's so many things you could change. Like you could have it involved, be focused on, the female perspective and have like a girl do something. You could even change it to America, like the setting, you can, or, or a different part of Europe.

7:07 Like you could, you could do things to change the environment and change the circumstance. I mean the act too, what happens, can totally be different. but they're gonna have to really be crafty and trying to figure out how exactly do you make it an anthology without like rinse and repeat. Yeah, like, like we don't want, and we definitely don't want to continue the current story like that, that's ended. The purpose of that story has ended. I don't want them to resume that at all. I don't think that's needed.

7:51 But I think that, they could tell there, there are plenty of stories to tell in terms of like the overall umbrella of adolescence as it currently stands in the world and given the social media of it all and other things, and other cultural changes. So, so I, I can, I can understand from a business perspective, of course, about why they would want to explore that. and, and I think that there are stories, but like, this isn't something that needs to be like. And in six months we need to start production on season two. Hell no. No, no. You, you're, you're literally have to go back.

8:44 because, because I would, I would love to more, more time spent like another story in this format and exploring these ideas and it being so raw. but they just have to figure out what that angle would be. So. Yeah, yeah, I, I, I, if they can figure out the right story story, then by all means, like do it. But don't, don't just rinse and repeat. Like, that's all I'm saying. >> Will: Yeah, I completely, completely agree with you. yeah, you're right. I mean your counterpoints to mine are definitely really, really salient. because it, yeah, there are even, even the manosphere and toxic masculinity. There's things, the bullying that, you know, there's so many elements. And I do like the fact that you did say that, you know, could they tell this story from, from the victim's perspective?

9:42 >> Sarah : Because, you know, not even the victim's perspective. I'm saying females are mean. Females are violent too. Like. >> Will: Oh, yeah, that's a good point. >> Sarah : Yeah, they get like. There's this lovely movie called Mean Girls. Yeah. Put that under adolescence. Okay. >> Will: Yeah, that's true. That is true. >> Sarah : Yeah. So I, I think that the, the thing about adolescence as a, ah, show, they be it. They tapped into, they were able to find a way to take a, a child and put them in an adult world and talk about things where even there's moments when the child is like questioning the adults and saying, are we allowed to talk about this? But then again, that same child committed a very adult like act. and, and also because of social media is exposed to porn and, and sex and all of this stuff. But no, the moment an adult talks to you about it, it's like, whoa, whoa, I'm, I'm a kid here. You can't be doing that. Like, like those taboo subjects like you have, they have to figure out a way to to tell a story and, and get in.

11:11 Like, it doesn't even have to be a murder. There could be, there could be other crimes or heinous actions. Of course. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : But there, there. I, I think I know that there are other stories to tell. Now granted, if it is, if they do do the switch up and tell it from, from a girl perspective, you gotta have a girl creator and writer involved. >> Will: Yes. >> Sarah : I, that's the other thing you're. And, and, and even race. Like, like if you switch up the race and, and go into that like these, these two older white men, they can't be at the helm of that.

11:54 And I think that's another barrier that they will have if they, if they try to delve into those worlds. >> Will: Yeah, all, yeah, all great points, all great points. But yeah, I mean, but you know, this show, is, is, is definitely ah, has hit the zeitgeist. I mean, I think it's fourth all time now on on Netflix and as far as views and so. Yeah, yeah, I think all the things you just shared, I mean, those are excellent points as far as like, if they do decide to green light a second season and like you said, go explore things. Race and gender. you're, you're right. Or definitely we need to have the, you know, proper representation in the writer's room to make sure that it's an authentic story.

12:37 >> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah. And I, I have started the pit on Max. And I, honestly, it's weird. I don't know what episode I am at. I, I, I know I'm probably around episode five or six, I think. I forget what time I ended it. But, so, so in a future episode, I will share my overall thoughts once I finish the season. >> Will: Okay. Okay. That sounds, Yeah, I have been, that's one of those ones I have been like, I've been chewing on starting. So I might, I may, I, mean add, that to, to the watch list.

13:18 >> Sarah : Do you know a lot about it? Because I've had so many scenes spoiled for me, so I do know, I. >> Will: Knew the, know the basic premise, but I haven't had anything. No spoilers. >> Sarah : No spoilers. Okay. I, I will forewarn you. I haven't gone into this episode and I honestly don't know when it occurs, but I do know there's an episode that features childbirth. And people are like, yeah, we did not need to see it. Did not, did not need to see it. And, and I even warned my, my brother and sister in law who are expecting, and I'm like, if you ever do watch it, just be warned to skip an episode that like, the moment somebody comes in pregnant, just be like, no, we're skipping this episode. Okay, okay. Because it just is a traumatic. That's what everyone has said watching that episode. Like, it's like, oh, oh, no, no, no, no. And, and a lot of medical experts have also said that from what I understand, out of all of the episodes, that episode in particular is the least realistic because of some of the things that happen. Everything else they applaud and they're like, this is the most realistic.

14:28 >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : it's also. See, I don't know what episode I'm at because I watched it, but I also was doing other stuff during it. >> Will: Fair enough. Fair enough. >> Sarah : Not. It's not an episode. It's not, it's not something where I'm like, oh, I have to watch everything. Especially because a lot of the stuff I'm like, I Don't want to watch that. I don't. I don't want to say that I'm not fast forwarding, but I'm also, like, zoning in and out. >> Will: Yeah, you're not dialed in. Yeah. >> Sarah : Yeah. So I. I don't know if I would recommend it or not. I. I'm still a very much on the fence. but, yeah, anyways. All right, that brings us up to Daredevil, Born again, episode eight, Isle of Joy. At his inaugural.

15:19 Inaugural Black and White Ball, Mayor Fisk tightens his grip on New York City. Parentheses and Vanessa. so I. I can. I have a problem with this episode. >> Will: Okay. I do. I do. >> Sarah : And the name is Dex. >> Sarah : I just. I think that's what ruined this episode for me, where I. I liked a lot of the stuff that was going on, but the prison break, I, was like, I don't. I don't like this. And then. And then the fact that it took him so he. He, like, he broke out of prison so easily. It was scary. It was just like. It wasn't scary. It was. It was cringe. And then he just so happens to get on the bus to leave and just immediately knows where Fisk and Vanessa will be. And like. Like, this is all seemingly happening, like, very close together, timeline wise.

16:26 I'm just. I just. That. That whole thing took me out of it. and. And I don't know. The. The. The show had me, and it hasn't lost me. But I will say I am m. Not as on board as I was. Like, Sarah, say, episode two or three. >> Will: interesting. >> Sarah : Yeah, it's. >> Will: It's losing me because I had the exact opposite feeling. >> Sarah : Well, that's good. >> Will: Yeah. I mean, this week it was. Well, I think a couple of things. it definitely. I was locked in with this episode because I think it was. The writing for me was just so. I guess it kept me guessing as far as, like, where things were going to go. and. And also, I think tonally, this. I could definitely see the.

17:21 The. This was the new ver. This is the version that. That after they came in and scrapped the original, well, almost a. Scrapped, I guess, retooled the original stuff. these two are. Are fresh episodes, whereas episodes, two through seven, are a, ah, m. Mix mishmash of the original stories that they were planning on telling. And then the. The new creative team spikes, it in there, the reshoots and everything in it. But for me, this episode was a nice bookend. It was a. It was what, a penultimate Episode should do, which is set. You know, we have. We've had all these various threads throughout the season come, to a head and, you know, and for me, as someone who did not watch the original, Netflix show, but I am familiar with the storyline as far as, you know, with, you know, the mats. You know, two biggest nemesis. As far as Bullseye and Fisk. It.

18:28 I. I felt sufficiently like, paid off, especially given that also episode one was also done by the new creative team and we get the. The follow up to the events that happen there with. With Foggy and tying everything back to, you know, who. You know, who actually did order to hit on Foggy. So for me, all of those things really worked really well in this episode and. And for once. Whereas the other ones I like, I liked. But I wasn't like, locked in, you know, other. Other. Well, other than episode five as far as the, intervening episodes, this one was when I was really, like, locked in and really enjoyed.

19:12 >> Sarah : Sorry, I'm just. I'm just blanking on where. Where you want to go from there. >> Will: I'll just give over my thoughts. No, I mean, I just. >> Sarah : I know. I. I know that. I just. I just don't. >> Will: Well, let's just jump in. Yeah, Well, I mean, I think we can just jump in chronologically as far as, like, what happened. >> Sarah : Break it down chronologically. >> Will: Well, if you want to. We can do. Or we can. Or we can do story beats. I don't. I mean, it's totally. I am. You. You are totally in the driver's seat. >> Sarah : I hate when you do this to me. Like, I had an idea of what I wanted to talk about, and then I lost it, but I. I lost it. Like, that's the thing. Like, that's. That's. That's what's happening is like, your overall thought took too long and I lost where I was gonna go, and I'm just like. I have no idea what to really, say here. So, Yeah. Yeah, I'm. I'm glad you liked it. and I, just. And I. I probably didn't like it.

20:17 Yeah, so the whole. The whole Foggy of it all. Here's my problem. Like, and you brought up threads come coming together. Okay. Foggy's absence has been huge in this show, and. But his presence has been felt because of, like, Matt and the suit of it all. I am not being articulate tonight, but we're just gonna go with it. And so. So my problem is it's not like we spent this entire season like, who ordered the hit on Foggy? Who ordered that? No, that question. We've never talked about that at all. Because the first. The first scene of the first episode happens. Foggy dies, and then it's a year later. Like, and it feels like he. He's moved on. Well, like.

21:10 But we know he hasn't. But yet at, no point between then and now, was it. Was he, like, questioning Cherry or. We never saw anything that they brought up in this episode between him and Cherry. About, like, we did all that research and we tried to figure it out, and we couldn't figure it out, and then they missed something and. And it just. It felt weird to me that, like, all of a sudden this is becoming a thing and. And how they get there, because how it took them more than a year to get there, that's a little like, I thought you guys would be better at that, because even I knew Fisk has been out of commission. Vanessa was in charge, so.

22:03 But. But it just. It just felt weird to me that, like, we. We circled back around. I can understand why, but I just. It didn't feel to me like a, thread coming together necessarily, since it hadn't been a question question. And. And maybe it's just execution, because when we talk about Spider man, arguably a similar thing happens, but I felt like that. That, like, that was a good surprise and, like, revelation just because of how they executed it, versus here, where it just felt like, oh, now that we killed Muse, we need to resume this vendetta between him and Fisk. And.

22:55 But. But also, be like, it wasn't. It really wasn't Fisk who called that shot. It was Vanessa. even though we have not been questioning that for purposes of this season at all. >> Will: M. Well, I. I will say that. I mean, as far as the Foggy of it all, I mean, so, yes, it has been a year, but I mean, but throughout that year, I mean, Matt has. I won't say, you know, we get. We get the early. Earlier in the season. You know, we. We have the. We have the trial. you know, Karen shows up, one year later. you know, we. We see. We see moments. Yeah. I mean, we're. You know, was the. You know, was like the. I think there have been, like, moments of, like, this maybe quite. You know, things being dropped. as far as, like, when I think. For example, when I think about the guy who, When Matt was representing, the guy who stole the, the. The candy, the pop candy from the. From the bodega. I mean, you know, there were questions about like, you know, justice and, you.

24:04 >> Sarah : Know, that's not the same thing, though. >> Will: Well, no, but, no, but there was. There were, bro. There were. I won't. But there were elements throughout the season where Foggy's death did, like, show up. So it's not like it just came out of left field again is my point. I mean, there have been like, there, there have been like, moments throughout the season where maybe not the. Whether or not it was a hit that was ordered. I mean, that was the moment whenever they went, you know, they were at the, you know, Cherry and Josie when they went back at this, at the shop, when they started putting things together as far as what happened that night. But, you know, but there have been, but to say that it hasn't been there not been a part of the story at all is, I think it's a bit much.

24:47 >> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, yeah. m. What else do you want to talk about? I find it difficult because I, I, yeah, I, I, you already know my thoughts about this episode, so, so yeah. What do you want to highlight? >> Will: Oh, I mean, well, okay, well, let's highlight the, the night of the ball. I mean, I think that was, that's really the pivotal moment, as far as, well, before we go there, I mean, let's, since we were talking about Fisk and, and Vanessa and hit and stuff, I mean, what do you, I mean, I guess they quickly dispense with Adam, you know, just, sort of as we, as we see Matt and, and, and, and Wilson like both get back through their, I guess, truer natures, and, and all it, you know. You know, so we get that moment with Vanessa and Fisk and, and Adam where he's like, I got to show you a secret. And they go down and you know, he, he, Vanessa, like Pops, kills off Adam, but, you know, just to sort of, again, drive things, drive things forward. But, you know, there was that, But I guess the other big highlight for me with, with the episode is I guess the, the ball itself. and just sort of, I mean, once as you, as you, as you started off, talking about Bullseye and his escape, showing up there and I guess just how, I mean, I guess the execution of, just basically how things sort

26:18 of went down with, with the, with the dance and stuff, and, and the assassination attempt. >> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah. Which again, I mean, my point being is that they are deliberate to show you how many quote unquote, task force members are armed and just walking around this this ball and how. It's a very secure thing. Poindexter just walks in undetected. I just. We spent 20 minutes in this ball, and it was very clear to me. You saw all of the.

26:59 The, wealthy people, and then you're. You're watching task force members, like, With. With. Right. Like, guns. Sorry, I don't know the exact type of guns, but, like, they make it a point. And then Poindexter walks right in. It just. Things like that will take me so out of an episode. I can't. It just. It bothers me. where you. Yeah, like. Like, they. They made it so clear that Fisk, like, to the point where it was almost like, are you using these guys to even threaten the royal. The people? Which, to an extent, he was. He was leveraging that now.

27:48 But again, point. Dexter just walks right in. So. So that. That took me out. And. And it was hard because I could see what they were doing with, With the relationships, whether it be Fisk and Vanessa or, Heather and Matt, which you planted a seed for me last week about the relationship with Heather and Matt, where this week I felt it even more, where I was just like, okay, I'm starting to see what. What will is. Because, like, one minute they're saying, I love you and get in their freak on, and next minute she's complaining because he's out all the time. And I'm like, wasn't it, like, one night? Like. Like, I don't. I don't. And. And it just felt quick in terms of the. The.

28:46 Not in terms of their relationship, in terms of the conflict that suddenly became. Because she goes through this very traumatic experience with Muse slash Daredevil, and then she, at the end of the previous episode, says, I think he said my name. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : But then this episode, it's like, we're not gonna address that. We're gonna focus on the fact that she doesn't believe that Daredevil, like, saved her. And Daredevil's just, Like, I. I'm just thinking in my head, I was like, can we explore that a bit more? Because I. I would like to understand the doctor's logic here.

29:27 >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : Before I get invested. So. So they're doing stuff with her character in particular that is starting to be very inconsistent and. And rushed. >> Will: yeah, that was one thing too. As far as the. I guess, with. With their. Their. Their scene before with. With the ball and. And, you know, so to that, you know, I was thinking about our conversation a little bit too, about, like, know, he you know, the, the straight. The strain in the relationship now because, you know, Matt's, you know, getting closer and closer to. To being, you know, going back to back you. He's back on the streets, being a vigilante again. and the.

30:10 She's. And I guess to that point about you. I'm glad you brought up the, the. The Daredevil not saving her. And Yeah, I mean, he, you know, he did. Yeah, she, you know, he facilitated, you know, she, her being able to get that gun and popping off. Popping, off Muse. But I guess the bigger thing for me was just sort of her. Her like, you know, basically equating, I guess the whole thing about the mask and you know, the bull, you know, and, and the What did you say? Oh gosh, I'm blanking on the exact terms, but I mean, she was. She was basically like lumping Matt, you know, all the vigilantes. you know, she was basically siding with Fiska's vision of like, why the vigilantes are a bad thing and basically supporting, you know, supporting Fiskus the efforts with the task force and stuff. And Matt's like, well, I just. I just like saved your.

31:04 Saved your ass. And you're. Is this is how you treat us? And. And of course he can't like say that, you know, he's Daredevil at that moment because then she will even treat him like even more crazy than she already thinks vigilantes are. So. Yeah, so yeah, you know, it did try to create, you know, I guess a tension ratcheted up more in that m. Moment. >> Sarah : Yeah. >> Will: Yeah. Which I don't know if it felt. I don't know if it was like manufactured tension. I guess it was dramatic tension and just sort of like, okay, really like, I guess set things in motion for. For later in the episode as far as, you know, as far as like when we are at the ball. And I will say when Matt was at the ball and he, you know, he made the cardinal sin that. That people do relationships is like, you know, whenever he was like listening in all this conversation I did have, I did laugh at that. Whenever, you know, whenever he was like, you know, they were trying. But he finally, you know, one, he got there late and they tried to like play it off like, oh, I'm just trying to be all fashionably. And then two, like whenever they were dancing and she was like talking to him and then he would like his head and you know, trying to hear what's going on and Stuff. And it's like, are you paying attention to me? And it's like, oh, yes, you're paying attention to you. I'm paying attention to you. I just thought that was. I mean, those, Those were the moments. I think that when I said why I really enjoyed the episode, it was just those, Those. Those true, like, human moments that you don't always see in. In this genre. Some from time to time that I thought was

32:35 what. What helped set this episode apart. >> Sarah : Yeah, I didn't interpret those that way, but to each their own. they just felt like. To go back to the conversation you brought up initially between them and that dramatic tension, which did feel manufactured for me, and just feel like come out of nowhere because she was planning on writing a book about vigilantes and I thought she was on their side. So maybe I misinterpreted that book storyline, but it just, it. They didn't spend enough time making me understand her perspective. So it didn't feel like it came out of left field that suddenly she's anti vigilantes.

33:18 I think that was the flaw for me, among a few other things that I've already mentioned. but. But yeah, and then at the end of it, Poindexter, he kind of gets his mark. But, Matt jumps in the way and. And it's Matt on the floor bleeding, to quote unquote, apparent death. and Fisk, he saves fixed life, which was teased at the beginning of the episode with conversation, between Max and Debt, Matt and Dex in the police, in the, the jail, the prison, about. I'm trying to find it. you know, in another life, you might be defending me, because that's what good men do. They defend their worst enemies. And he saved a fixed life.

34:16 >> Will: Well, I think with that yawn, I think it's time to move on to starter man. >> Sarah : I mean, you. I'm. I'm so glad you were engaged, this episode. But, like, it just continued. Things that I found, I found off putting in the previous episode, and I was just like, I'm. This, is losing me. It's losing me. And. And like, like, also, I mean, everyone has seen the set photos from season two. >> Will: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, we all know. I mean, we know. Even though he, like, jumped out there. I guess it's a theory spiral for the finale before we move on. I mean, we. Yes, we know. Yeah, I mean, we know he's not gonna die.

35:03 I mean, you know, jump. You know, he's taking a bullet for you know, he took a bullet for this. But, but yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's. I guess it's really. At this point, it's just like, okay, we've got the, you know, we've got the task force showing up, doing their thing, getting worse. you know, we, we, we, you know, we know Barenthal is going to show up again, so we figured the Punisher is going to show up in the finale to, like, you know, maybe take down the task force and stuff and basically be, you know, I guess Matt and maybe Poindexter will have one more showdown and, you know, and, and. And also the task force as well. So, you know, he's got, you know, he's. Matt's definitely going to be in a weaker state, so he's, you know, definitely makes sense for why Punisher is going to show up to help him out.

35:55 >> Sarah : Yeah, yeah. Potentially all of that. I don't watch the previous. I have no idea. >> Will: No, no, this is not from a preview. This is just me. Yeah, no, this is just me talking. >> Sarah : Yeah. all right, that brings us to the last three episodes of your friendly neighborhood Spider Man. I'm gonna go through the synopsis of each episode real quick. Episode eight, Tangled Web. Norman gives Spider man an ultimatum, causing Peter to do some soul searching. Episode, nine, Hero, or did I mistype Menace? Oh, that's hero of menace. Right. Spider man swings into action as Lonnie looks to settle a score and Norman visits an old friend. And episode 10, if this be My Destiny, Peter's insurance ship takes dart turn with the arrival of an unexpected visitor. and so I'm just gonna go to the.

36:53 The point that I brought up earlier during the daredevil discussion. And, that this the season finale, talk about a dark turn with the internship thing. So we, we realize that. Or we find out, as Norman reveals to the interns, Project Monolith, which is a device that's a gateway to outer space. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : Sorcerer supreme shows up. I still had no idea. I was like, oh, okay, we're seeing him again. And then you see the black Beast. And then. And then you're. You're like, oh, we're doing this again. And it wasn't until, like, the. The portal really does open and those two fallen. That. It.

37:46 That it. I figure out. Oh, so you're telling me Norman, like the event we just watched, the events leading up to how he becomes Spider Man? >> Will: Yep. >> Sarah : It. It was done so well. >> Will: Yeah, Yeah, I was thinking. Or I was like, you know, Thinking like Oroboros Ouroboros, thinking back to, like, Loki Season 2. >> Sarah : Great. Great. And. And it's also just like Norman, who we. We find out, I think, in the previous episode, has one of his scientists working on a special project to replicate Spider Man's blood that he took from after the scorpion, battle that Peter lost.

38:35 And. But that same blood and replication is inputted into a spider that then bites. So Norman basically created Spider Man. >> Will: Yeah. Yeah. >> Sarah : I just, It was. It's done so well because it's. It's just a great magic trick of like, this event happens, and you just take it for what it is at the beginning of the. Of the season. And at no point are you thinking like, oh, this is gonna tie back around.

39:19 It's just not a thought. It's like that happened. This is, We're not gonna play with time here, but. And. And you're also developing this dynamic between. Between Norman and Peter. Now, granted, any. Anyone who knows Spider man knows Norman can never be fully trusted. But you also, like, you understand why through these course, these courts of events, like, he is so willing, especially because of that. The nod to the Iron man and Spider man relationship. We know from the MCU that that is, paralleled at the very beginning of them meeting in. In that first episode. So it's just I. I really applaud them for, such a.

40:15 Such a good arc in that sense. I mean, these last three episodes revved everything up. And then I think in the. The last episode, they really had to be like, okay, Monolith showing you what the. What the game plan is. And now we're gonna lead. Leave all of these loose ends, but. But not really loose ends. Like, they are untied, but they're also like, yeah, this is now, where we're. Where this character could go moving forward. As we see Nico with her medallion. And, through the course of these episodes, Lonnie. Lonnie, becomes something else.

41:07 >> Will: Starting to. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was. I guess that was the. Was that episode nine. Eight or nine where he, like, he gets exposed to the chemicals? >> Sarah : It's episode eight. >> Will: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so, yeah, because he, you know, he is Tombstone. But of course, you know, whenever we. We. We see like, the. The. The pink. The. The gray fingertips, after he's exposed to. To the. To the chemicals, which, you know, ultimately Tombstone does, you know, hold his whole body. You know, he looks like that. But, you know, we see the super. The super strength and everything. And I did, like, The. I did like the showdown, with, With Peter and two and Tombstone, whatever, whenever they were fighting the gang. And also, you know, how. How. Basically how Tombstone becomes the leader of the gang because, the. The original gang leader, like, you know, he chickens out whenever. Whenever things gets rough. And. And so that, you know, so it's just to your point, about threads, and being, woven and everything. you know, we. As we talked about earlier in the episode tonight, you know, we do know that we'll have seasons two and three.

42:16 So, you know, we're seeing all the foundational things as far as this Spider Man's rogues gallery, being developed here when. When, you know, as I guess in year one, of Peter having the problem having his powers. >> Sarah : And it's also. It's not having a villain for the sake of having a villain. I mean, with Lonnie. I mean, you already brought up the. The car, Well, not the truck hijacking event. And really it's not Spider man versus Lonnie at all in that. It's. It turns into Spider man and Lonnie working together against sp. Scorpion because he shows up. And. And in that moment when Scorpion comes up, Dre is just like. Or Dom is like, I'm, out.

43:05 >> Will: Yep. >> Sarah : And. And that causes Lonnie to. To be like, no, that I don't. They need someone else. I will say the one, One of my critiques about this show, it's not a big one, is I do feel like with Lonnie, it. It was a bit rushed for me where he went from being like a. An athlete, student and very much like on the straight and narrow to. Yes, I understand He. He gave.

43:47 He gave up. he took the place of his brother. I totally understand that. But then after that, when he. When he. The. The quickness came from the loyalty he had with the other members of the game, like, it just. It felt. It felt a bit abrupt. and I felt very much like Pearl, like, what are you doing? Yeah, I don't understand. >> Will: Yeah, I mean, yeah, they saved you from the Scorpion gang, but. Yeah, but. Yeah, I mean, but for him to falls, you're right. But it was a very haste, hastily, descent into, like, you know, fall from grace for. For him, for sure. Yeah, I.

44:29 I would agree with that. One critique for me was just. I felt like they. I don't know if it's critique or. Or just like. And, Maybe it was. Maybe it's not a critique. It's just more like it was a beat That I, that with Peter, all the adults just like throwing too much, like more maybe the adults not being helpful to Peter because especially, you know, he as as we see him get, you know, try to balance being Spider man and being a teenager and working at the internship. I mean, poor Peter was like, ah, pulled in a thousand different directions, you know, so where, you know, it does cost, you know, it does cause a strain on his friendships and he's strained on himself. I mean when he just like has the, you know, has the moment there with May and, and you know, May's just like you're stronger than you think you are. And, and then of course when he like goes to Norman, Norman gives him, you know, does the, with great power.

45:29 >> Sarah : You know, it's great respect. >> Will: Yep, exactly. >> Sarah : I, I, I hear what you're saying and I think you're right. I think that, that it almost by by having Peter engage with so many adults and, and them not really utilize May, they, he comes off so much older than a teenager in high school. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : And that's kind of the disconnect there where like, and, and especially when you bring in a character like Harry who, yes, it's explained he has tutors and he doesn't go to high school and all this stuff. Again though, you're kind of like these characters between him, Nico and Harry are supposed to be teenagers in high school and, and even Lonnie.

46:19 And yet they, they seem like they, they, they don't have those same pressures and they seem like they're in college. The way they go about things, it just the, it's not matching. And I, and I think why you, you bring, or you saw it now especially is because yes, that was a very good, nice scene between Peter and May, but I felt like that was the first scene we've had all season and we really should have had more. Now that was a great reveal at the end of the first episode about, and, and I, I was thinking about this earlier. I was like, man, that really is a good reveal. So we find out at the end of the episode that or at the end of the season that May goes and visits Peter's dad in jail.

47:14 >> Will: Yep. >> Sarah : And, and so I, I was thinking about it earlier today and I was like, wait a second. So that's why when Nico and Harry were over, Peter brings up that all their moms are dead. Because my first thought actually, I remember I clocked that and I was thinking about it at the time. I'm like, wow. But, but Peter aren't You an orphan? Orphan? >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Sarah : Like what? Yeah, yeah, the dad is still alive and they, they kind of subconsciously planted that a few episodes ahead of time.

47:57 So, so it, like things were there to pick up on. but. But I thought that was really interesting. and good. And good, planning for. For that reveal at the end. which just again, which, which is something like. But all of the other decisions like these. Again, this. It's not a reboot. It's. It's just a retelling. It's. It's. You're taking. There's something so familiar about this show and, and yet it is definitely telling its own version of events. >> Will: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know we talked about that I think last week where. Yeah, it is, it is. You know, it's taking elements. I mean even, you know, even like we, we did get a. At the very end and it was a blink if you miss it. You know, we get the watcher from what if you know, whenever he and Stephen Strange have their you know, little send all goodbye there and you know, so I was like, yeah, you know, it is reminding us that, that we are still in the multiverse saga and we're just seeing another part of the multiverse here. And.

49:14 Yeah, and. And this is, and this is a multiverse story that actually works. >> Sarah : Right, right. Which I mean, granted the the no Way Home was also a Multiverse story. That worked too, I guess. Spider man knows how to tell the multiverse. >> Will: They do. Yeah, they do. >> Sarah : Granted, they play in their own. They, they play in their own sandbox too with the multiverse. I think that says something. but they, and there's. Into the spider verse. >> Will: Yeah. Eventually. >> Sarah : I don't know what it is about this property that allows it to be so adaptable to the multiverse. But.

49:57 But yeah, I think it's just because of how from how many different versions and store and the story has been told that there is something about it that they continue to find ways to reinvent reimagine and it doesn't feel stale. >> Will: Exactly. Exactly. >> Sarah : Now granted, Sony has released a trash load of projects that don't feature Spider man, but that's, that's just because one plus one doesn't equal two automatically. >> Will: Exactly. Exactly. But yeah, but yeah, but Sony, you know, and ah, Sony has done a good job with Spidey, in every iteration that they've had him.

50:43 >> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah. and, and we even, they even. And I'm not familiar with this character, but, but We. We Circle back to even Daredevil. He returns in this episode and we see that another intern, Jean, is finesse. And, she has been spying on Norman. And it looks like next season she'll be spying on Harry, too. So like, like, again, there are things that happened earlier in the season that. And I think also because I don't remember the exact release order of these episodes, I know they were in batches very similar to how we have broken it up. And I think that's why a lot of the connective tissue feels stronger because you're not going week to week and. And the arcs feel much more complete because like, you are watching them in a full arc.

51:48 and you like. Yes, the previous arc ended with After Scorpion versus Spider man. And. And the first two episodes of the last three feature very much like Harry or Peter trying to deal with losing in battle and. And. And regaining strength and trying to figure out, well, like the doubting that occurs of that and. And also kind of some ptsd. but he gets. He gets his stuff together, granted. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : I mean, you brought it up before the whole respect line. I was just like, they're going there. No, they're not. Thank God.

52:35 >> Will: I was like, yeah, because as soon as the c. As soon as Norman started going there, I was just like, oh. and then he was like, with respect. And I was just like, okay. No, did a twist on it. And it's completely, you know, Norman read the room. You gotta. You know. But. But it really. It goes to like, again, to show the selfishness of Mormon. And you know, he's just using Peter as it means to an end. and, you know, so serious. Yeah. So was that. >> Sarah : And then, yeah, like his conversation with Doc Ock. >> Will: Oh, yeah, I was about to go there. Yeah, that's exactly what I was about to. About to segue to was his, ah, conversation with Doc Ock and and their rival.

53:17 Their history and rivalry and stuff. And Yeah, I mean, it's just everything about Norman is just like. Just, you know, it's as we. As we know, we will eventually be, you know, become the Goblin and. And I like the way that they're. You know, even from. And to your point about how earlier episodes planted the seed, you know, we. We saw the. So about it. You know, we saw the. The selfishness of Norman and where, you know, and what angle is he. What's this? What's the angle here for why he has such a fascination with Peter after he sees him? They're in a Stairwell. and. And we get that payoff, you know, with, him, like. Yeah, with the spider. And. And of course, you know, back. You know, he does end up creating Spider man, so.

54:04 >> Sarah : Right, right. Even though he was trying to create something for himself. >> Will: Like, for himself, though. Exactly. It wasn't. Yeah. >> Sarah : It's the ego of Norman that they did such a good job with because he. He is very much like Tony. Very much. And. And he. He's a businessman. He's got all this money and power, and he just wants more. Well, then you start seeing, like, your rival become a superhero. >> Will: Yep. >> Sarah : Well, I gotta. I don't have that. And. And I love that line in the final episode where when. When Doctor Strange arrives and he says, you guys with your powers.

54:47 Powers floating around, like, you're better than us. I mean, the conversation with Doc Ock even gets at that to a point. Like. Like, Norman can't have anyone appear, to be superior to him. >> Will: Nope, not at all. >> Sarah : And. And so, like, he's able to minimize anyone who's a threat. Threat in that regard. And. And yet he doesn't have superpowers. And so he feels inferior to anyone who does. And that is. That is an angle arguably on. On Norman that has. Has been there, but I feel like for the first time, really fleshed out, at least for me. And it really feels like. Okay, you're building a strong justification for a vendetta against Peter in particular.

55:46 >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : which. Which I think that this show would not work if they. If the execution between this relationship between Norman and. And Peter was. Was not done as well as it has been done. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : it is a. It is the backbone of the show, which is arguably surprising because in the past there's been so much more focused on Harry and Peter. But. But. Which is sad because I feel like by. By establishing such. The relationship between Norman and. And Peter, like, how that unravels allows there to be like, just naturally that vendetta in that. That antagonism between Harry and Peter. Like, it's just.

56:47 >> Will: Yeah, because I, like, I think back. Yeah. Because one of the. One of the earlier episodes in this block that we watched, you know, they're. They're whenever, Harry, you know, whenever. Nor like, basically kicked Harry out of the room, he was. Wanted to have that conversation. And. And so, Yeah, so that. That's a great example. I'm glad you brought that up because, you know, that. That. That made me think of that example of. Of that and, you know, again, planting the seed for why things go south between Harry and, and Peter. at least how they're going to, how they're going to do it in this iteration of Spider Man. especially when you can think about like when, you know, it was Harry who got Peter the, the traditional, well known suit. because the the suit that Norman, did. They settled on got destroyed by the, the fight in the fight with the scorpion. and then of course, you know, using the Go get him tiger, taking that from Mary J.

57:39 To, you know, to, to Harry. >> Sarah : so yeah, that, that went a bit far. I was like, that's weird. >> Will: That was weird. Yeah, I like that just doesn't. It doesn't, doesn't. It doesn't feel right. Yeah. It's coming from him. Yeah. >> Sarah : Some things are, aren't meant for that. I mean, I mean, and, and maybe. >> Will: If it were Nico, I would have been okay. If it were Nico. Yeah. It has nothing to do with. >> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, I, I know exactly with what you're gonna say because I feel the same way. I'm like, it's not because she's female, however, like, we equate that line so so much with Mary Jane that it's very hard not to like, it's very hard not to be like, whoa, talking about moving fast. Okay.

58:33 but yeah, I, I'm very much glad that we, we watched this season. and also that again. And this bodes well for the next Disney plus show that we'll get into later this month with Andor Season 2, given how they're structuring their episode release. You can do the three episodes two episodes at a time, but if you're gonna do it like, it should make sense with how they were written. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : Like this, that's what this show proves to me above all else. I mean, I feel like earlier when we were. This year, when we're talking Invincible, they do some, some combining of episodes released. Of course, there was the infamous Daredevil a few weeks ago that had episodes five and six, but those did not. Those felt like scheduling.

59:33 Not, not for purposes of the story they're trying to tell. Like there's a, there's a reason why we're releasing them in this manner because of the arcs and because of the overall story. And then I foresee that happening with Andor season two as well. But, it's. It's when. It's when it's because of scheduling that. That causes it to become a detriment as opposed to, to a, an attribute of a show. >> Will: Yeah, agreed. Agreed. >> Sarah : All right. Well, on that note, Will, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you? >> Will: Yes, you can find me on all the socials at, Will and Polk W I L L M P O.

1:00:15 >> Sarah : L K and you can find me there too at SJ Belmont S J B L M O N T. Please follow our crew on X formerly known as Twitter. And I said that backwards but forgive me in another life. please follow us on Twitter AKA X. How do we used to say it? >> Will: X formerly known as Twitter. >> Sarah : X formerly known as Twitter. The first time I'm so tired for some reason. Follow us there at see the nerd at Blue sky at Scene N Nerd. Friend us on Facebook. Follow us on Instagram and threads at scene underscore n underscore nerd and Visit our website www.scree a nerdpodcast.com but most importantly, rate, follow and comment on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube or wherever your podcast. Good night. Geek out. You're welcome.