Sinners Spoiler Cast - Music, Vampires, and Cultural Resonance

0:00 >> Will: Foreign this is seen a Nerd Podcast presents Blerd Trek. I'm your host, Will Polk and thank you so much for joining us tonight as we're going to get into a spoiler cast of Sinners. That's right, we're talking about the new film that everyone is talking about. It is in the Zeitgeist. But with me tonight on this very special edition of Scene N Presents Blerd Trek is my wife, Sharlini Thank you so much for joining me. She was so pumped about this movie.

0:40 She did came to you this morning. She's Will will, can we do a show about this? And I was like, of course. So I thank you for. So welcome back to the podcast. You joined us on our Scene N Nerd. A few years ago we were talking about I believe one of the Star wars movies, I think Rise of the Skywalker. But yeah, but, but welcome back. >> Sharlini: Yeah, happy to be here. Yeah, we saw Sinners last night and my head was full of thoughts and you know, as always, I had like all these vivid crazy dreams and I woke up in the morning and I am the morning person. Will is the later riser, shall we say. And I woke up in the morning and I had all this time to churn through multiple themes that I was thinking about with Sinners.

1:21 And when Will woke up, I was like, will, Will. Okay, I want to talk about these themes. I want to talk about, da, da, da. So Will was like, okay, let's, let's do a show about it. So here we are. >> Will: Yeah, yeah. So like I said, we are. This is a, this is a spoiler filled podcast. So I'm going to give you so. >> Sharlini: Many spoilers, lots of spoilers. I, I don't, I can't talk without spoilers. >> Will: So yeah, yeah, and at this point, yeah, this is, this is a spoiler filled podcast. So if you haven't seen the film, jump off now, go watch it and then come back. Listen to our, listen to our thoughts on, on the movie. So with that, your last spoiler warning, let's jump, let's jump right in. So again we are talking about, the movie Sinners This is a spoiler review and just get a little quick little basic overview. I'm reading from the IMDb database.

2:18 but of course the IMDb summary is the following. Trying to leave their troubled lives behind, twin brothers return to their hometown to start again, only to discover that an even, even greater evil is waiting to welcome them back. So that's the IMDb database, summary of the film of course, the film is directed by Ryan Coogler. It stars Michael B. Jordan, Miles Canton who is his first feature film role. >> Sharlini: He's phenomenal. Phenomenal. >> Will: Yeah, yeah. Delroy, Lindo Haley, Steinfeld is also in it. Lusaka who Many folks probably recognize her if you've seen Loki. seasons one and two. She's been in the MCU.

2:59 And Jack O'Connell, and also Jamie Lawson plus many many other folks. this is a period piece film set in 191932 Clark's Clarksdale, Mississippi. The film is scored by Ludwig Goranson who who is a frequent collaborator with Ryan Coogler. Star wars fans will know loved it from the Mandalorian. He scores that show. And and the brilliant costume designs which we'll get into some here in our spoiler cast is by Ruthie Carter who is an Oscar winner and had to both of us had the opportunity to see her Oscar winning designs here locally at the North Carolina Museum of Art. >> Sharlini: Yeah, our art museum, our North Carolina Museum of Art is fantastic. We're long term members, we love it. And they had a traveling exhibit when Ruthie won her Oscar for costume design and Is that right Will? Is that the right award? Yeah. And it was amazing. It delved into all you know and I'm a person who crafts, I sew, I'm really into thinking about costumes and design. It was just such an incredible display of all her work, all the details that went into it, all the thoughtful planning and you could see that, you could see that thoughtfulness and detail oriented approach.

4:23 Every single detail of the costumes in this movie. It just took you right back into that period. >> Will: Yeah, yeah. It's amazing, amazing stuff. And, and of course she is a frequent collaborator with, with Ryan. Of course she's done both black Panther films, both the original and also Wakanda Forever. But Charlie. >> Sharlini: Yeah. >> Will: Tell me as we get started here, just give me your overall thoughts about the film. >> Sharlini: So the first thing I thought is it is a disservice to call this a horror movie. The horror part really complements like so many complex themes that this movie just so beautifully weaves together. Right. So it takes place as well said in the 1930s what's happening nationally. It's the era of the robber barons. It's the era of people getting rich from coal and, and railroads and steel.

5:15 It's the era of people, it's Post World War I it's, Prohibition, and it's, You know, culturally. I think this movie explores those themes from the lens of the South. Right. The black South. And at the time it's still segregated. So the movie also gets into so many themes that I found so interesting about, that era, post Civil War, but still segregation, post Reconstruction, and finding joy, finding, beauty, finding love, finding tenderness, finding happiness in, In the midst of this segregated world that people live in. It also gets into, the legacies of our ancestors that we carry with us. And I thought this movie was so interesting because you have. Obviously the movie centered around, you know, the twin brothers who come back, but there's also kind of a subplot, that goes back to the Chinese immigrant cultural experience.

6:17 And there's. There's just a lot in there to unpack, so. So get me back on track, Will. >> Will: Oh, no, no, no. That. That's. That's great. >> Sharlini: You know, it talks about colonialism. It talks about like. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sharlini: the lens through people view black society at the time as well as the lens, through how people view themselves. And the thing I loved about it, and then it's also the interplay of, you know, music and art and religion and the. The new religion. I say relatively new. Right. Christianity in the south versus these deeply embedded spiritual practices that live on in your DNA, even if you don't realize that, you know, predominantly the African American culture. But also, as I mentioned a little bit, the subplot, alludes to the Chinese immigrant and the Asian immigrant culture as well. So I found it super fascinating. I found that the vampire horror plot line was almost complementary, but not really the. The.

7:23 The main fascination of the movie for me. >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I completely agree with, you know, with that. And you know, I think also for me, as far as this overall thoughts, you. I. I had heard about this film, saw the trailer. It was definitely, one of the films that I wanted to see. 2025, profiled it on our main show and we. As far as, the top films coming out this year and also during, Black History Month, we had a feature on our main show with my host Sarah Belmont, where we have profiled, during Black History Month, Black filmmakers during Women. Women's History Month, very prominent stories, for Women History Month. But, we, you know, for 2025, we profiled this one in particular as far as one of the films that's coming out and go. And if y'all drop it in the chat as far as the in the, in the comments before you can see it, our list of other films for 2025. But for me, this film, it was, I heard it was a vampire movie. When I saw the trailer, it was a, you know, I was like, oh, this looks really, really good. But it did not, it did not give you the, the level of depth that we're going to get into tonight as far as some of the themes talked about.

8:34 also the big thing that I think enough that really, that really struck to me about this film is how much music in and of itself was a character. You had the people, but music itself was a character. And, and, and the score and every, you know, and the the utilization of music and, and to pull together the story. This, this film. Yes, it is a, yes, it is a black film as far as having a black director, predominantly black cast, but also it's a four quadrant film because everybody can get something out of it. >> Sharlini: Yep. >> Will: You know, because the, the, and we'll get into the, the, the, the Irish character, the vampire, who's played by Jack O'Connell. You know, there's that backstory there, there is the whole course, you know, the storytelling elements of, you know, telling story through song, telling story through visual medium. That Ryan Coogler now is five for five. I mean, quite frankly, between from Fruitvale to now.

9:35 The other thing too, and then we'll get into some specific points of the film is that this was an original story, this was not an ip because prior to this, Ryan, of course, you know, we know his work from the mcu. Of course he also did Creed, which is again being based off the IP of Rocky. But this was a independent story that he came up and he showed that he can not only helm a, a feature film from an original product, but really tell an amazing story as with, you know, with, and construct an amazing story writing and directing. >> Sharlini: Yeah, yeah. I do want to say though, it was, yes, it was a completely independent story. It was a story that was really well told. But I want to get back to your point about music being a character in this movie. There is so much through this movie that speaks to, and I said this in my kind of rambling, excited intro in the beginning, there's so much that speaks to the DNA of music that we don't even realize we carry with us. Right. So in the case of. I'll start with the Irish or the Highland Scottish, Irish vampires, that, you know, the Highland dancing, that Celtic music that folk, you know, the folk gathering.

10:49 I was, honored enough to be a guest of my sisters at a wedding with, in the uk, people with Irish ancestry. And they had what's called a ceilidh. A ceilidh is a traditional Irish folk dance. So we all learned the steps and we all did it right. So that, that is that thread of, And it was beautiful. Everybody dances in a circle. It's joyous, it's celebratory and it's in the DNA like it's just passed down generation to generation. Children grew up. And you know, this is true of cultures all around the world. Greek culture has folk dancing. Pretty much any culture you go to there is. Dance is a sort of ritual and it's a way that connects you to your ancestors, to your beliefs, to your spirituality. and so I started with the, the Irish highland dancing. And I think it's almost a cliche to talk about how much music, African music and spirituality have influenced music through today. And African American music, the spirituals, the, the songs that people enslaved, people sang, you know, those threads come from those ancient rhythms in your DNA. They, they give you strength, they give you spirit, they give you, they, they have a power.

12:09 So I, I think that to me was very evident. And if I, if I may, you know, there's a scene. Do you want to talk about this later? >> Will: Start. Let's start with the role of music. Because, yes, it is a vampire story and we can go through, you know. >> Sharlini: We don't have to necessarily. >> Will: I wanna. Let's. Yeah, I mean, we don't have to go chronological with this film. Let's talk about the music. >> Sharlini: Yeah, it's a story about the transformative power of music. Right. And there's. There's two threads here. There is in the main character, Sammy, preacher boy or one of the main characters, you know, he, Yeah, there he is Preach, where he comes from a family where his father is the preacher and he gets pressure and advice to, to stick to church music, to stick to spirituals, you know, not, not that sinful music, but the call of the ancestors music is, is too strong for him. But then I found myself thinking that they are interwoven. You can't separate one from the other. The reason why African American spiritual music is so moving is because it carries with it so many generations.

13:29 >> Sharlini: So many generations of knowledge, of culture, of community, of power. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sharlini: So I found that, you know. >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the whole thing about music, I mean, when the movie starts, I Mean, it starts to your point about the spirituality and everything. It starts with, you know, Sammy showing up at his father's church and the Sunday morning and it's the store, you know, the, you know, hearing the children's choir singing, you know, and. And. And. And so we. We get that. And then also to your point about the cultural aspects of it, because, The. The. With the Irish. You know, with. With, The Irish vampire. you know, there was the. The whole Irish jig that was, going on there. But the blending of the two.

14:17 The two. The. The. The cultures, the sim. The similarities, I guess. Because, you know, again, the, You know, whenever I heard. Whenever. You know. Because earlier, you know, prior to that scene, after everybody got bam. You know, a lot of these folks got bitten by the vampires. We had. We had the. We. We had a very big musical fusion scene. >> Sharlini: To me, that was such a powerful. Visually. Musically, you know, that was such a powerful scene, that juke. Juke joint scene. >> Sharlini: And yeah, I think maybe this is where you were going. You had the scene where they're playing the blues, but then everything revolves. And then you start hearing. Hearing the drums, you start hearing chants. You start hearing Chinese traditional music.

15:06 You start hearing, you know, different musical genres. And it even goes into the future and you start hearing music of today. And it's just the way that scene was woven together was. And there's no vampire. This is before the vampires. Right. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sharlini: And. >> Will: Right, right. >> Sharlini: Just that scene in itself was. Just had so many stories in it. >> Will: Yeah. Yeah. I mean. Yeah, that seemed to me. I, know some. I have. You know, I think so. So, you know, there. That. That when that happened, I was. And we were seeing. Because even at the beginning of the movie, we have the cultural Africa songs and some, you know, some cuts to it. And then, you know, when we get to that big scene in the juke joint and we see the evolution from the blues. Because the blues has just really. It is the. It is a. A cultural, you know, foundation for rock and roll when you think about it.

16:05 >> Sharlini: Right. African rhythms. >> Will: And it's a bit. >> Sharlini: Not a musician, but I am a dancer, so. >> Will: Yeah. Yeah. So the blue is. You know, it's very well documented how, you know, blues music. Yeah, yeah, very. Yeah. how it has, you know, how it influenced rock and roll. And then, of course, you know, we think about, you know, Sammy, the. The blues physician, Robert Johnson, and talk about Sammy's. You know, we'll get to some of the spirituality of it too. But, Robert Johnson, you Know, with the sort of. Sort of similar to Sammy, where Sammy's dad was like, you know, you can't play this song, you know, this music with the devil and that kind of stuff. And then, you know, Robert Johnson in his real life had, you know, had struggled to like, like to be getting noticed. And then he all of a sudden popped and people were like thinking, oh, you know, he must have made a deal with the devil. And then, you know, so again, to enter, you know, to interwave. Interwoven the real life history into this film, of. Of some of the themes that, you know, Ryan was trying to like, you know, illustrate with this, with many. All these various themes in this film was really interesting. And then also just the. The similar stories between like, Irish immigrants and also African Americans as far as the.

17:19 The use of music to. To. >> Sharlini: To build community. >> Will: Yeah, build community. And also. >> Sharlini: Yeah. Your sorrow, your roots, your struggles, your suffering. Yes. >> Will: Yeah. So all those things. Things are really playing, you know, playing there, you know, real interesting inner woven dynamic between the two cultures that are, that. That were really some of the subtext of this film that were, you know, What I really liked about it was that this is a beat you overhead. It was just organic to the story. >> Sharlini: Yes, but, but okay, can I, Can I digress a little bit and I think into another theme, though, but that dichotomy, that pull between kind of like quote unquote, good church music versus the sinful, you know, all out, you're fully embodied. You're fully embracing sensuality. The rhythms, the drumming that pull also is. Oh, the good music is what the colonialists and the masters want you to follow and leave the bad behind. Right. And that, that other stuff, that's uncivilized.

18:29 >> Will: Yeah, yeah, let's get it. >> Sharlini: That is another theme through this whole movie is, you know, what is respectable. you know, and I think with. With a twin. We haven't even talked about the twins. We haven't talked about 20 minutes in. Right? But. But the twins present this veneer of respected, quote, unquote, respectability. You know, they're dressed well. They, you know, they carry themselves like gentlemen and they, they have money, they talk about fine Italian wine and whiskey and, they want to have this classy juke joint. Right, but it's a veneer for, for the. Would you say the rage, the anger, the. The kind of, But also the quest, right, the quest to establish yourself and celebrate.

19:18 Celebrate your community, celebrate your success, celebrate your people, come back to your family and your roots and. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sharlini: I thought that was another theme. And then they have the whole backdrop. The movie has this whole backdrop of. It's also the time of the clan. >> Sharlini: Right. So yeah this is all. And it all is so seamlessly flows. We started by talking about the music but the music also carries those themes. >> Will: Yeah yeah. Let's. Let's talk about Smoking Stack, the two. The two brothers. And and you know of course there is the. The wonderful performance by. By Michael B. Jordan putting up this. This photo here of just as we were as we started the podcast. Just want to really get to Shalini's point about the.

20:04 The art, the. The costume design but also how the story. But also I want to use this, this photo, this image of the two brothers to really flesh out some of the things about them that really does drive and propel the story forward. So you know with Smoke and Stack. So Smoke is the one with the blue cap. And it really. And. And it was. And this was the use of costuming to also tell the story because he is the more cool, the more business thinking one. He was the one who met with the gentleman Declans the At the time m. The owner of the.

20:47 Of the just the building there that they. They want to turn it to. To the juke joint from their exploits in Chicago which is a whole nother story we can get into as far as them working with the gangsters and also to your point about building a community. And and the line that sticks out to me in the film is whenever. Whenever they do come back home and they. They're putting together everyone to build this juke joint. They were talk when seeing this is sharecroppers and you know and this, this is something for me that you know that resonate resonated with this film because my. My ass. My great great grandmother would tell me stories about picking cotton in the 30s and 20s and 30s and so.

21:29 >> Sharlini: You know, so seeing that your family actually can I say not to digress too much but your mom told me this. Your mom's family actually fled South Carolina because the Per. I guess the person who owned the land. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sharlini: Demanding you know didn't pay them. And then your was a great grandfather or your grand. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sharlini: Your great grandfather demanded his fair share. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sharlini: From Picking cotton. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sharlini: And they were threatened with being lynched. So they actually fled for their lives from South Carolina to North Carolina. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sharlini: But that long ago. This is. I was thinking about this. Right. This is not that long ago.

22:09 >> Will: Yeah. Yeah. and that's the thing too, as I think about that line, that resonates because with that where they talk about the plant, the. The cotton fields and stuff and then. And the. When they. They left, they were part of the first wave of migration from the south to the north. And the brothers were. And they got wrapped up with the Capone gang. And But one of the things that smoked, talked to. To preacher boy, who's also. Sammy is. Who's their cousin, is that, Chicago was just basically plantation with skyscrapers and you know, so it was, you know, that struggle and the hard work and you know, even though, you know, you thought going to the north was going to like, get you out of this. This thing that you thought that this environment you had in the south, there were still things in the north that were just as, Just as daunting, you know, for, For. For the two brothers. But the cool thing about their story too is, you know, so of course they, you know, they, they do go to north, they do come, they do become part of the gang. But then they also, like we learned that, to.

23:20 Whenever they were setting up the juke joint, you know, they had this truck that was like, hidden in the. In on the path. And the thing about that truck, it was, you know, it was all, you know, you brought up the, you know, the fine wines and the, you know, Irish, the beer and that kind of stuff. Well, they stole all that stuff from the, from the gangsters and then in the mob. And the mob were like, you know, they were like. The mob war was, you know, they were pointing fingers at each other. But at least these two brothers who actually were the ones who stole it, which I thought was just, you know, really, you know, gets through there. Yeah, gets to their. Gets to them. Their, Their story. And they're smart and their savviness. But Stack is the, you know, so, you know, so Smoke is the, the rational one. You know, got the blue hat. Stack is the one with the red hat. And the, The.

24:06 The guy with the gift of Gap, he could like, really talk his way through a situation. He was very smooth. And so, you know, so those two brothers. And I think the thing that. One of the things you talked about this morning, I'll hand it off to you, is that the relationships that these brothers had with themselves, but also with the friends and families in the community. So I'll let you, >> Sharlini: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, one of the things I've really, have come to appreciate and you know, you see this in Black Panther. You see this in Wakanda forever. What I've come to appreciate in the way Ryan Coogler depicts relationships is the vulnerability. It's the vulnerability and the tenderness that I think. You know, I don't want to speak for you, but I think you don't often see black men depicted, in that way of, you know. Again, this is a spoiler review, right? So there is a. There is a loss of a baby. There's a loss of a child.

25:01 That grief, that loss. There is a tenderness of coming back to women that you love and. And vulnerably saying, I love you, I need you. And there are strong women who are independent, who are not waiting on their man, but they, you know, they're supportive, and they provide that love. And to see that expressed in a vulnerable way where it's not macho, it's not. It's realistic and is really how so many people have tender, open, honest relationships that you don't always see depicted. So, again, we're very far from talking about the horror movie theme here, but I really appreciated that even though there were just a few scenes here and there, that was really the underpinnings of the movie. Right. They were like these hardened guys who cheated the mob, but at the end of the day, they were vulnerable. They had a lot of love to give. They had a lot of tenderness.

26:01 They. They had joy. They had, You know, they had great affection for their cousin. They mentored him. They. They what? They looked out for him. They, you know, sacrificed a lot for him. And the, you know, the. The coming back to the women, too, you know, that complexity of, The one brother want, you know, chose the path of, well, I'm just gonna save you, and the other brother chose the path of, you know, so I'm gonna save you and have nothing to do with you, and I'm gonna abandon you because it's better for you because it's too dangerous to be associated with me. Right. That. But then coming back to that vulnerability to say, no, no, I love you and I need you, I thought was very powerful and very powerfully depicted.

26:48 >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that. That definitely was. I mean, that was, the. The relationships that they did have. And even. And even, Even Sammy. >> Sharlini: Even Sammy. Right, that. >> Will: Yeah. With, With the relationship that he had with, with Pearl. you know, but think about the point. >> Sharlini: He's younger, so for him, it's first love. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sharlini: But I think it also goes, you know, as we're talking about relationships, you could see it's not spoken out loud, but you can see the inner struggle for the relationship he has with his father. M. And coming back to the music, right? The music is calling him. His gift is calling him in a different direction.

27:29 His gift of powerful, powerful music, powerful song. But you can see that conflict of where he wants to do the right thing as the preacher's son and he wants to honor that relationship with his father. And that is also depicted in such a subtle way. It's not know. It's not in your face. And I think that's the thing that struck me about the romantic relationships as well. >> Will: Yeah, yeah, that was definitely, definitely just. >> Sharlini: Very matter of fact. This is, you know. >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But But you're right to that point too. As far as the two brothers and just they're in a relationship, their, their friendships and stuff with people in the town.

28:10 They you know, and something you also raised with the other group, the Chinese for example who were there and just the inner interplay with them. And we'll, we'll put a pin in that because I do want to talk about race and passing and some of the other things here here in a minute. But But the other character that was very Prominent and I thought sold every scene that he was in was ah, Delta Slim who was a ah. Delro Lindo's character and the friendship that you know the relationship he had with. With the two brothers and you know whenever they, Whenever they first go to the train station there in. In town as they're trying to pull together the people for their, for their juke joint.

28:56 And, and of course you know they you know, of course we do see the. How powerful Sammy is as far as his musical acumen. But we first, when we first introduced the Delta Slim as he's sitting there playing harmonica and, and. And then, and then of course he and Stack have their, their. Their discussions about you know, as far as the negotiation. And that was another cool thing too was just the. As far as the interpersonal relationship among people in the town. And that's why I thought about the Chinese family as well who run the shop whenever they were setting up the. The juke joint, the negotiations of people and interaction with the. The commerce that was going you know there's.

29:37 That was going forth during this time period because They you know, the bar, the barter, the back and forth negotiating price barter just you know, you know that the economy of. Of of the. Of the tile time and town I think was another little small detail. But those, you know, but to me as someone, when I, like when I, When I get, those are the types of things that helped me get immersed into the film because it gave it a groundedness. >> Sharlini: Yeah. And that's why I say, I think, you know, this is not even a horror movie. The vampire plot was almost secondary to the whole movie. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sharlini: Yeah. >> Will: Because I want to do the thing. I was like, I heard the first half's about setup and then the second half's about the vampire piece. But even. >> Sharlini: But, but no, I don't know. It's very seamless. Yeah. Should we talk about, you know what. Should we talk. Should we. Should we talk about the passing, the. The reason? Yeah.

30:27 >> Will: Yeah. I think this is a good place given that we're. We're talking about relationships and stuff, because, yeah, Haley Steinfeld's character, she, you know, she. We learned that, she did, have a, black father, or I guess half. >> Sharlini: Her daddy was half white or something. >> Will: Half white, yeah. Yeah. And of course, you know, during that time period, it was still, you know, again, we're. We're talking about Jim Crow South. So, you know, miscegenation laws are still in a place and the one drop rule is still very, very prominent. And to your point about, the relationships that, you know, Stack was like, look, you know, it's not safe for you to be here with me. But clearly they, you know, they had a prior relationship, but then they left. She waited for him, but, you know, she did move on and she. She did marry a white, you know, married into a white family and stuff. And there was. There was a lot of background with that too, as far as like, you know, the. The brothers not, you know, paying their respects, but, you know, due to the death of her mother, you know, that was a little tension point. Yeah.

31:27 >> Sharlini: To me, you know, it struck me. So that whole relationship and that whole storyline, of her, you know, Mary, I think was her name. Mary Passed, struck, me. There was actually a pretty prominent character, so Mr. Carnegie, the Mr. Carnegie's librarian. She was a, A woman named Belle da Costa Green. And she was a rare woman in the time of male antique dealers. She went to. She went to Europe and she negotiated to procure the best artworks for Mr.

32:08 Carnegie. And she was, you know, the best of them all. And after her passing, it was. It was, ah, revealed or it was found that she was actually a black woman who passed as white her entire life and rose to prominence. She was Running. She was given responsibility to run the library and to go acquire pieces of art with huge budget. So watching that, you know, watching the movie yesterday, watching Sinners and how the, the topic of race and light skinned people passing as white were handled reminded me of that book that I had read. It's called the Librarian.

32:50 Fascinating. And yeah, fascinating both into, into the world of art and antiques and that same time period of you know, the 1920s and 30s as well as race relations and passing as white. So. >> Will: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean you know that. But that was a very, again it was just a very important point I think that again not be, you know, that they, that they. That was very important to the story. Not only to you know, with Stack and Mary's relationship, but also as we do get into that whenever they do open up Club Juke, which is the name of the juke joint. and, and, and whenever we do M. You know, we do see the, the first round of the vampire show up. you know that was that was part of, you know. Or is she going to invite all these, you know, the, the you know, she was, you know, it was given her passing and then we had these three white people show up at the, at the place. It was sort of like. Yes.

33:54 Where they go. It was know they were like wait. >> Sharlini: Can, can I correct, can I go back and correct myself a little bit? I got my robber barons mixed up. Yeah, so I got my robber barons mixed up. I apologize. So Belda Costa Green was The librarian for Mr. J.P. morgan. >> Will: Oh, okay. >> Sharlini: Yeah, for Mr. M. J.P. morgan. And the book is called the Personal Librarian by Marie Benedict and Victoria Christopher Murray. So it was Mr. Morgan. Yes. >> Will: Okay. Okay. >> Sharlini: Sorry about that. >> Will: Yeah, no, no, no worries, no worries. but yeah, I mean to that point though, about you know, barons and passing and also just thinking about that, that time period when you still had the JP Morgans and the, you know, we know we're not too far from that. The Carnegie's. You know, we're not, we're not too far from the Gilded Age. And you know that's also very, you know took it to another piece of literature about that time, the Great Gatsby. let's talk. And also just the larger point of the world too because the two brothers didn't mention this before. They were also war veterans from the First World War.

35:04 >> Sharlini: Yes. >> Will: And another thing that you, you talked about and, and something I wanted to bring up too as we, we you know, think about the, the vampires, as we. It was. It's because we were really getting into the vampire portion of the film. is this colonialism and, And. And, you know, with the Irish and the British, you know, there's that history of, you know, the British going, you know, of course there's the colonialism and stuff that happened with Africa, but also how Britain and Ireland have had that very contentious relationship and a lot of Irish had to, you know, move out from, you know, because of that, it came to the States. So. Yeah. So pick up on that. I want you to pick up all your thoughts on those.

35:46 >> Sharlini: It's interesting how, you know, the vision that the vampires offered was equality and everyone being treated the same and, you know, they don't segregate and, you know, and that. That's what they were trying to use to lure people. They said, why don't you come be with us? And we, you know, we're all one people coming back to that whole idea of community and belonging. But the theme. And I feel, like I'm circling back to the music, the dancing, the rituals, the themes of colonial, the. The religion, you know, the pressure to be that. That. The pressure to. To, you know, play the good music, to be a good Kristian, you know, to adopt the religion of the colonizers.

36:36 is a very powerful theme that runs through the entire movie and is really brilliantly woven in. And you know, the. The fact, that the old ways, there are still people who remember and carry on the old ways. The. The girlfriend of, Is it Dax? Girlfriend. Will. The one who figures out about the vampires. >> Will: Oh, smokes. Smoke's girlfriend. >> Sharlini: Girlfriend. Smokes. Girlfriend that figures out about the, you know, the. The old ways. And she figures out what's really happening and she makes a magical amulet that she believes and Stack believes keeps themselves. Keeps him safe. M.

37:20 Right. They allude to that quite a bit. And I, you know, I know that there's still superstitions, there's still that knowledge that, continues. Right. Even through the efforts of colonialism to. To stamp it out. And I thought that was also very beautifully and brilliantly depicted throughout the movie. >> Will: Totally, totally. Yeah, that. Yeah, that the, That was definitely, brought woven throughout the movie. And another thing about colonialism too, and something we were talking about music and the collectiveness and stuff and thinking about too, with some of the discourse lately, about this film itself. Take it out of the film, but listen to the real world and about Ryan Coogler being able to, you know, get the ownership rights of. To this film.

38:09 >> Sharlini: Yeah. >> Will: After 25 years and, and thinking about, again, historic context of the blues and how cultural appropriation happens and, and, you know, to your point about, you know, in the religious context, it's like the good music versus the, you know, the, the bad music. >> Sharlini: You know, claiming the space. Right. Claiming the joyful space to celebrate, to play music, to be loud, to be happy, to have relationships, to all those, were not things that were allowed. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sharlini: Under colonialism and slavery. So just the fact of, coming back to the south and opening a juke joint where people can come, you can dance, you can stamp your feet, you can sing, you can make love, you could, you know.

38:58 >> Will: Yeah. Yeah. Raise hell on. On Saturday and be saintly on Sunday. That was, yeah, that was the theme of the juke joy. But also it was a safe place because. Yeah, because, you know, think again. You worked hard in the field, you, you know, and everything, and then you had this safe place to go to, to just be free and, and all. And then. But, you know, but, you know, I think about the vampires when you think about vampirism, and this is what I think was a fresh take on vampirism. I thought this film had. That takes it from just your typical vampire film to another is, you know, we always think, you know, with vampires, you know, you're, you know, the bite and, you know, we saw the typical things as far as, you know, you can't kill them and they come, they come back and that kind of stuff.

39:48 >> Sharlini: They're scared of garlic and. Yeah, yeah. >> Will: All the traditional beats were there. But I think the, the, the. The underlying cultural appropriation of that. The, the belonging. I wanted to be one. You know, I think on the one hand it seems very innocuous, but on the other hand it's just like they're just going to just take everything about you and just suck it all out. >> Sharlini: Of you and assimilate. Right. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sharlini: Yes. >> Will: And I think. And I think that's what made the Vulture, that's what made this film more Take it to the next level than just a basic vampire. Vampire movie. >> Sharlini: Yes. So shall we. Should we close by? We've been going on for quite a bit longer.

40:30 >> Will: We plan to talk 40 minutes here we are 40. But I think I'm enjoying it. So. Yeah. >> Sharlini: Should we, you know, I don't know if you had other things on your list, but should we close by? Coming back to the. Just the visual richness of this film. We started out talking about costumes. Costumes. Yeah. We referenced a couple of times the music. We've referenced the Juke joint. And the way, you know, the costuming. >> Will: The. >> Sharlini: The way. Yes, there you go. You kind of put it up before I said it, but when I was watching that scene and listening to the music of in the juke joint, where they had the live music playing and everyone's dancing, it immediately reminded me of that painting, Will, that you had just up. Can you bring it back? It's Sugar Shack by Ernie Barnes, by Ernest Barnes, who's actually a native of Durham, North Carolina. So the interesting thing, Sugar Shack was painted a little later in the 70s, but the composition, the way this scene is composed, just even the backdrop, the wooden floors, you know, the people, the costuming, everything about that juke joint scene just reminded me so much, particularly of this painting. And I just wonder if there was a intended or a subconscious homage to Ernie Barnes and his work depicting joy of music and dance and celebration, which, again, is the theme that we've, I think, talked about quite a lot in that movie. And just. I just. In that moment, I just felt so immersed and.

42:03 >> Will: Yeah. >> Sharlini: That it just really struck me. Right. The. The importance of continuing to depict joy and celebration and relationships and authenticity. >> Will: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, and I'm glad you brought that up because, you know, while I was watching the film and I know after we finished last night, we didn't think of it at the time, but know, there are those. Those. Those images and. And things that are just that, Resonate. That resonate with you. I mean, many people probably are familiar with, you know, who have seen the. The. The. The, painting Sugar Shack. it was on the show Good Times. and it was. >> Sharlini: It was a Marvin Gay album cover too.

42:44 >> Will: It was so, you know, so there have been, you know, things, you know, but, other places where people may have seen it didn't even realize it, but, you know. But I do completely agree with you that I think that whole. That the. The. The scene that then the shot that Ryan and his director, you know, was thinking of whether subconsciously or consciously was a Sugar Shack. because it just really. That it was just visually was there. I could just probably hear him like, telling his director photography. He's like, remember, have you ever seen pulling up Sugar Shack on their phone or whatever? Yeah. Or when they were doing storyboards, when they were planning this film. I. I can imagine that was part of their discussions whenever they were like, how are we going to. How we're gonna. How are we going to set up this film or set up this scene? And that was.

43:27 That that is totally, totally the. Totally the inspiration, for it. Clearly clear as day. but yeah, the visual point, like I said, you know, we did talk about the costume and stuff. you know, spot on period. You know, costuming. there was also I know one other thing too, that two things I wanted to hit before we drop, is the Chocotaw Indians and their, their warnings to the clan people. Because again, you know, whenever Jack, Jack, O'Connell, his character, but his character's name was Remick. you know, he, you know, thinking back to the appropriation discussion that we had a few minutes ago, and I think, you know, and I think the context there was. They were trying to like, you know, take over the. The Indian, the Native American tribe.

44:15 And they only had them in this, in the film for just a very short part at a time. But they, you know, but they clearly forced him out because whenever he first shows up at the. At the two clan members house. >> Sharlini: Yeah. >> Will: you know, he was all scarred, beaten and stuff because they had forced, you know, they figured it out and got him out of there. And so I bring that up because, you know, they, they, you know, whenever they showed up at the door, they tried to warn those people. >> Sharlini: Well, I'm gonna say two things. I'm m gonna say colonialism again and I'm gonna say dismissal of traditional indigenous knowledge, which is another theme. You know, at the end of the day it was that traditional indigenous knowledge and the community that saved them. and with the Choctaw Indians and you know, showing up to the Klansmen, the, the white people's house, they were greeted with suspicion and they were turned. Well, they turned away because it was starting to get dark. Right. So. Yeah, but again it, it car. Again, it's very subtle. It's a very short scene.

45:20 >> Will: Yep. >> Sharlini: But it echoes those themes and which is again why this movie is so brilliant and so multi layered. >> Will: Yeah, yeah. So there, there was that piece and then m. The you know, the second piece. Related. I'm blanking on it now, but I'll come back to me. Oh yeah, it was just the, the costuming of. You know, we talked about that. but also the relationship between the brothers. Because it really ties to the end of the film. because at the end of the day even. Well, yeah, there was relationship with the brothers. And also one of the things you asked me last night, we were talking about, you know, about the why. How did the, you know, what was keeping the vampires out. And the only way they were finally able to get in. And this is another cool thing that I thought was really great about how they took things about from the different path from some vampire films is they had to be invited in. They could not. You know, every time they were. They came to the.

46:20 >> Sharlini: That's right. That's a traditional vampire lore. You have to. >> Will: Have to invite them in. >> Sharlini: You have to ask them in. They cannot enter without being invited. Yes. Yeah, but yeah, like the original Dracula, movie. Yes. >> Will: Yeah. And the thing that they were trying to work around that was whenever, June I think it was. I think her name was Grace Troy, I believe was the, the mom of. >> Sharlini: Oh yes, the husband. >> Will: The husband got. Was trying to go to town to save their daughter. Got bitten. And then, you know, because of her, you know, they were using her to like and to. To basically break down the defenses and they were able to briefly to get into the. Into the, into the.

47:01 Into the club Duke. but yeah, so that, you know, there was that piece and then the last two points I'll make and then we can, we can close is the relationship with the brothers and how it just sort of sets things up for the end because the You know, Stack was bitten because he did have the relationship. You know, they were, you know, the. Earlier in the film Mary, left and she encountered Remic, and the other two vampires. And of course they, they were able to. They bit her and she she. She comes back to the, to the, to the place and then she in turn bites Stack because of their, their relationship.

47:43 >> Sharlini: And, and she's invited in by. >> Will: And she's invited in because. Yeah. >> Sharlini: Yes, because she. Yeah. >> Will: Bamboo tie that back to what we were just. Yeah, yeah, to tie it back to what we were just talking about. The vampires being invited in. So that's how they, that's how they were able to get into the house, into the club Juke. but the, you know, the, the relationship between the brothers, at the end of the day they're so protective of one another and, and you know, we learn that Smoke could not kill Stack, you know, after after they figure out. >> Sharlini: Major, major spoiler. Yeah. >> Will: Well, if you're with us by now you've watched the film, so I can't help it if you like we warned you at the beginning right there.

48:31 >> Sharlini: Yes. Yeah. >> Will: kept it up for the whole time. but, but, yeah, but you know, but of course we do. You know, you know, we begin to film with Sammy. We end the film with Sammy you know, we get the beginning there with Sammy at the beginning, you know, showing up to church. Sammy, figures out, you know, Sammy kills Remic. you know, he's, you know, the very instrument that his father told him not to use, you know, to be that the devil's instrument ended up being the thing that saves him. The, the music and the, and the, the silver banjo. and, and, and then, you know, Smoke takes out, you know, the clan does show up. Because that was sort of the, you know, that was one of the things that we learned the motivations about, you know, the truth about the, the building that the club Juke was, was on.

49:27 And then fast forward to, you know, Smoke does take out the clan, Smoke passes away, he goes to the afterlife because again, he was free to be with, What, was her name? I can't remember her name. But, not Mary, the other. >> Sharlini: Yes, yes. I can't remember any. >> Will: Yeah, the, the, the, the princess. Yeah. and, but we get. So as we all know, we get to the mid credit and we, we talked about this last night and I've had some time to think about it. I want to hear, hear what your thoughts are now. And we'll close. you know, Stack and Mary show up at Prlene's and you know, and Sammy, you know, Sammy grows up and he creates, you know, he goes on to have a, he leaves town. He has a wonderful career. Just a little cameo there by a buddy guy who plays the older Sammy.

50:23 And at ah, ah, Pearline's and, and Stack and Mary show up, so. >> Sharlini: And 90s outfits, which is also just amazing period costuming. I was like, oh, I, we actually wore those things. >> Will: Yeah. 1992. So it's like what, 70 years? >> Sharlini: Yep. >> Will: Yeah, later, I guess. Yeah. 60 years later. Yeah, 60 years later. Yeah. Yeah, my bad. Yeah, we're like, yeah, my bad. but, at first I was like, you know, it felt like it was the return of the King. Multiple endings.

51:05 But you know, the conversation that they had there. I'm glad they, Now that I. Eventually the ending works for me because at the end of the day, Stack has the proposition. You could have everlasting life and immortality if you just become a vampire. >> Sharlini: Uh-huh. >> Will: And Sammy says no because, you know, at that point, you know, because, you know, Stack sniffs over, you know, he knows death is imminent for, for, for Sammy because he smells death around him. >> Sharlini: Yeah. >> Will: And he offers him that. And I just thought, to me, you know, the more I thought about it, that was like the perfect ending to this, film where Sammy's like, I've lived a full life. I'm. I'm content with what I have. So.

51:47 No, I don't want, I don't, I don't want your offer. >> Will: That, to me, that's. That, to me, that mid credit. >> Sharlini: Yeah. Ah, I have to think about this one a little bit more because I, I thought they should have just ended it where it ended without the epilogue and maybe had, you know, the epo, the epilogue be Sammy, you know, at 75. But yeah, I don't know, I'll have to think about it. That's a fresh. I hadn't thought about that perspective. >> Will: Yeah, Yeah, I just, I just thought about this. >> Sharlini: He has a choice and he rejects it. >> Will: Yeah. Yeah. Because he's like, I've had a full life. I, I, achieved everything I wanted. And, and, and that was a very, you know. >> Sharlini: All right, this is way past my bedtime.

52:28 I've. I know we talk about this all night, but it is way past my bedtime. >> Will: Yes, it is. But, thank you so much for, for joining us. So if you watch Sinners, let us know what you thought about our discussion and about the film in the chat. We would love to hear your perspectives on this film. Definitely one that I definitely want to go see again. But, before we go, Charlie, let people know where they can find you. >> Sharlini: At charlene._nc on m Instagram. S H A R L I N I Underscore NC thanks for letting me join you all. Thanks for listening. >> Will: Yeah, yeah. And you can always find me on all the socials at Will and Polk. Visit our website at www.cinardpodcast.com.

53:15 find us on, Twitter at Seeing a Nerd. Find us on Blue sky at Scene N, Nerd Instagram and threads at Scene. Underscore End Underscore Nerds. Be sure to, follow us, all the social platforms, but also most importantly, rate review, comment on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, subscribe to our YouTube channel or wherever you get your podcast with that. Good night. K out. You're welcome. >> Sharlini: Good night.