The Queen's Dilemma | House of the Dragon S3E4

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>> Will: Foreign.

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>> Sarah : This is seen a nerd. I'm your host, Sarah Belmont,

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and with me, as always, is our Mr. Producer, Will

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Paul. How are you doing tonight, Will?

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>> Will: Doing very well, Sarah. Happy Monday. Happy.

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Looking forward to discussing House of the Dragon,

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Episode four, Season three and the Games of Foot

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are an ass, depending on how you. How this. How

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this episode started.

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>> Sarah : House of The Dragon Season 3, Episode 4 Tumbleton

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on the IMDb summary reads, Ormond's invasion of

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Tumbleton forces Rhaena into a corner. Written by

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David Hancock and directed by Claire Kleinier.

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We're gonna start with Team Count Small Council.

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Okay. Because there's a lot of small Council

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happening and. And we're gonna weave into things.

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But, Grandmaster Orwell almost borderline MVP of

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the episode. I don't know, he. He's. He continues

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to pop up and just has some, some great

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conversations with Rhaenyra. Okay. And, I mean,

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that's what the Team Small Council is all about.

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You were talking about people who have. Having

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some pretty epic conversations with the Queen of

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the Bastards. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That was a

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bit too hot.

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>> Will: Off with your head, you know. Careful there.

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Careful there. You're gonna end up like, his

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brother.

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>> Sarah : Careful, careful. I mean, I'm not team Green. I am

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team black, because I know she was. It was. I know

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what Viserys wanted. But you're just.

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>> Will: You're doing, like. Oh, you're doing, like, off.

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You're just sharing information.

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>> Sarah : I know, but.

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So the fascinating conversation between Orwell and

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Rhaenyra is. Is regarding Rhaenyra's interest in

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the High Towers, ties to the faith, and he says

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the Seven are as intrinsic to the High Towers as,

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well, dragons are to House Targaryen. I don't

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think anything up until this point has really led

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us to understand that. I mean, now I fully get it,

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but I also never really saw it in previous

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seasons. And this led me to a question will I have

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for you?

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>> Will: Yeah, M. Yeah. Yeah.

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>> Sarah : Because we know in the previous episode that

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Viserys disowned his dragon. And we find out that,

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yes, the Hightowers are very, very connected to

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the Seven and to natural religious tendencies, and

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they find that the dragons are abominations. Now,

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how much do you think Viserys letting, like,

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disowning his dragon had to do with Otto?

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>> Will: Well, given what we've seen in this episode and

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how, the High Towers. Ormond, you know, late. And

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how his. His. His, nephew.

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>> Sarah : Oh, his. See, I don't. We're gonna get. I'm gonna

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get people confused on their relationship.

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>> Will: Yeah. Orman. Yeah, yeah. Orman is Allison's first

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cousin.

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>> Sarah : Okay. Okay.

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>> Will: Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. So the, But to that point, I

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think, you know, we. We've seen. We've seen how

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the Hightowers have. Are masters at manipulating

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and scheming and. And all. And. And so I, I can

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see how if. Or if Otto had a very similar type of

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role in bringing up Viserys and in those early

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years, you know, having him make that. Have,

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Viserys do that. but also, but also. But, you

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know, but I think too, Viserys. Oh, I don't want

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to take all his agency away because Viserys was a

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little bit, you know, wanted to try to do things

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different as well. and so how much of that was

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Otto's influence or just. Just seeing how, Just

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trying to, you know, keep peace in the realm,

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which was something that was. You know, we've

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talked about this with the early, early part of,

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our discussions of House of the Dragon in season

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one. I mean, it was. Know it prior to the Dance of

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the Dragons, it. There was a, you know, extended

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period of. Of peace and prosperity in. In the

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realm. So I think. So I think that was. He was a

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big part of that. So I think part of it too was

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just, you know, And. And some of the things that

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Viserys has shared with Rhaenyra and others about

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how, you know, you know, with how unpredictable

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dragons are and, and, and. And you know, who.

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Who's actually in control here. So maybe it was

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just his wisdom and you know, and he. And it also

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just, you know, we saw this in this episode,

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Viserys, the models where, you know, whenever,

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Allan and rad discussions as well. So, you know,

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so he does see those old, you know, those ties to

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old Valeria. so, you know, so I think. I think

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it's probably a combination of both at the end of

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the day.

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>> Sarah : Yeah, absolutely. Like, I, I agree with you. It's.

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It's definitely a conversation. I think that it's

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just we know how. How Darren, or not Darren, Damon

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would feel about if anybody ever talked to him.

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And so you can just see the difference of,

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perspective on the dragons and the rider

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relationship to the dragons and the usefulness of

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that. And, And I think a lot of that has to do

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with. Well, Damon spent a lot of time in war,

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right. In battle. And so he like, that's a weapon

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and that's a power and to seize it.

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And then Meanwhile, to rule, though, like, you

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have your hand, and your hand is very, very

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influential. Arguably, the most influential person

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on the small council is the Hand. who. Who gets.

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we get a new hand in this episode, with Sir Alan

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of Toll. Man, that guy got promoted real quickly.

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>> Will: Yeah.

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>> Sarah : Yeah. He may not have that last name, but, boy, he

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is a Nepo baby.

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>> Will: Yeah. Ah. Yeah.

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>> Sarah : I mean, because, honestly, Allison is serving as

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the Hand right now. She really is. And. And

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there's. And I think that subconsciously, Rhaena

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wants that, because in a weird way, she feels like

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she can only trust. There are certain things about

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Rhaena and Allison that only they will one another

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understand about each other, very much like Otto

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and Viserys. So. And, And I agree with you, and I

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think that's also pointed out in this episode, is

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that the High Towers, Now, Otto was very much like

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peace and balance, but also wanted power. And

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that's what kind of led to a bunch of decisions

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that got us to here. And his head is cut off, but

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he also.

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And then we meet the cousin, Ormond, who is also

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very much, but under a different guise, with this

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religious phonetic thing about him where we find

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out he's been essentially ruling Old Town as,

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like, a separate kingdom. It's his kingdom, and

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there's standards and that there's a way to rule.

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but we will get more into that in a minute. yeah,

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but I just. This. This continued to go back, and

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there's a lot of rhetoric that. Rhetoric. Rhetoric

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that even Ormond uses later in. In the episode

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about the dragons and the Targaryens and magic,

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and. And so it's the supernatural versus that

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religious. And I think that's why this

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conversation between Orwell and. And Rhaenyra is

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so important, because we're continuing to walk

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that line. And especially considering she's the

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one who is kind of like, this is what the Seven

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wants. Like, the Seven is making me ascend. But is

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she a false prophet? And so far, since she's been

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back in King's Landing, she feels like people are

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constantly pointing out to her that she has no

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more right to that throne than her half brother or

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any of her half siblings. So. And that makes her

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feel like the legitimacy. Emphasis on that word

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is. Is not as strong as she felt when she didn't

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have so many half siblings.

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>> Will: Yeah. And more on the way.

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>> Sarah : Yeah.

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>> Will: But, yeah, you know. Yeah.

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>> Sarah : You know, I was just gonna go back to the scene

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you brought up between Alan and Rhaenyra, who also

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talk about balance and how. And Viserys's reign.

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And I like how she put it, fathers have a

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maddening capacity to at once inspire and incense.

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>> Will: Yeah,

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>> Sarah : yeah. And then, yeah. Moses for the cats. So go

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ahead.

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>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which, you know, which

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auto. Again, talk about the role of the hands.

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Otto also gave the same counsel to Aegon II when

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he was like, yeah, you know, bring the cats after.

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When. After he killed all the rat catchers. he

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gave the same, Same advice. But, yeah, you know,

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with. With one thing. Ah, I did love about that

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scene between, Alan and. And Rhaenyra. One. What

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you just. What you just shared as far as, like how

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the maddening thing, you know, think about

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fathers. And, And I really do. I really enjoy the

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pairing of, of those two. because we've seen it

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happen now in a few episodes, whenever they pair,

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Rhaenyra and. And Alan, they just have really good

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screen chemistry together. 1. But also just, you

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know, the, the father, the connections here, the

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complicated relationships with, with their

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fathers, we're seeing that. And then also just the

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comic relief of the, of the whole moment too, the

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way they just played that scene, with, With. With

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respect to the rats and the cats. I thought that

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was, that was pretty, that was pretty funny. But

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you know, Orwell, he is. He, you know, he is. I

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call. He is like the whole. The holdover for like

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each administration. You know, there's some, you

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know, you see this a lot of times in like real

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world politics too, where, a person will rise to

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the level even if he's a part of the opposite

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party, will sometimes still manage to be able to

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get a seat at the president's cabinet or, or if

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it's an apology system, you know, get appointed

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to, you know, particular, you know, minister of

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something. And Orwell's, you know, he has that. He

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is very, you know, he is very political, very sad.

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And. And that was one of the things about this

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episode, you know, with, you know, there's all

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these various people. You know, there's like, I

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think, kind of like six, seven or eight stories

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going on in this episode. You know, we really.

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Whereas last week was really just more Rhaenyra,

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this week we're seeing all the things going on in

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Westeros.

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>> Sarah : Yeah.

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>> Will: And everybody, and everybody, Everybody like

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maneuvering. And Orwell, for example, he's, you

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know, we've seen it in these earlier episodes and

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now he's like, he's. He's back on the small

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council and you know, and she's like, don't play

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with the Little, Little toys, as far as the little

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globes that there before. And it was like that,

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you know, that was a nice little touch because it

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was like. It was. In a way, it was like her

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establishing herself and the way she's going to

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rule, not the old toys that the men had before,

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but now here's how I'm going to do things here at

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the Small council, and in

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>> Sarah : Orwell at the same time. She retains Orwell, who.

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Who would. Guided. Guided, all the rulers that

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came before her. So her father included. Like,

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she's definitely going back and forth between this

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is a new reign and also trying to. Trying what

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feels like almost a part of her grief of the loss

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of her father and her sons to hold on to things

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that he had, because she wants the type of reign

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that he had.

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>> Will: Yeah, yeah.

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>> Sarah : So.

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>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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but also something you also brought up, too, with,

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I think that's a very good point. And also with,

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the supernatural and the religious and, you know,

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one in their conversations about her anointment

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and, you know, and she, you know, he was. He's

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like, well, you can. You know, you. You're. You're

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the crown now. You could. You could just burn it

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all down and just blow up the church and don't

244
00:14:34,350 --> 00:14:37,640
worry about what they have. But. But she realized.

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>> Sarah : But, no, I was just gonna say, I believe his exact

246
00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,830
words was like, you know, you could, end it

247
00:14:44,830 --> 00:14:45,350
permanently.

248
00:14:46,230 --> 00:14:53,070
>> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And. And

249
00:14:53,070 --> 00:14:54,950
honestly, that would probably be what Damon would

250
00:14:54,950 --> 00:14:57,510
do. But Rhaenyra's like, no, like we were just

251
00:14:57,510 --> 00:14:59,710
discussing earlier. She. You know, she really

252
00:14:59,710 --> 00:15:04,330
wants to. You know, and I think even her rebuttal

253
00:15:04,330 --> 00:15:06,530
was like, no, no, because if I do that, I risk

254
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pissing off the gods, so.

255
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>> Sarah : Well, if she does it, she not only risks pissing

256
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,600
off the gods, but I think it goes back to

257
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legitimacy. Which is ironic, considering all of

258
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,440
the talk about her being the queen of bastards,

259
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,560
and that's brought up and written on the walls in

260
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,970
the kingdom of, of course, High Tower loyalists.

261
00:15:30,510 --> 00:15:36,560
but. But it's. But. So she's dealt with for years

262
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,330
the legitimacy of her own sons. So now, like,

263
00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,890
Rhaenyra is a Targaryen. Nobody questions that.

264
00:15:44,210 --> 00:15:49,330
But the legitimacy of her being the true heir to

265
00:15:49,410 --> 00:15:52,610
the throne, that's what's always been in question.

266
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So I think that it all. It has to do more with

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that than even pissing off the gods. just with how

268
00:16:03,330 --> 00:16:07,560
she moves throughout this episode. like, and. And

269
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she's also. She's. She's also Appointing people or

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00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:19,580
people are being promoted, going in their stead,

271
00:16:19,580 --> 00:16:21,690
because there's no way Corlys will certainly serve

272
00:16:21,690 --> 00:16:25,040
that as, her hand. Now, like, we knew that was

273
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,720
written on the wall last episode. Yeah, but I, I

274
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,480
love the White worm. Just put it out there like

275
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,600
you. You need a fall guy for this whole money

276
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:40,120
situation. And as soon as Rhaenyra said sir Torrin

277
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,200
Manderly, I was like, I know who that is. I don't

278
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,160
remember his name, but I knew exactly who she was

279
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,120
talking about. And I'm like, yeah, that's the way

280
00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,120
you do it. And I like how he's probably smart

281
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,200
enough just based on that one interaction. We had

282
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,560
to know, like, as soon as he looks at the books

283
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,240
and is like, oh, yeah, we're in some deep, deep

284
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,320
poor state here. He knows, like, why he was

285
00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:11,040
appointed. But I also get the impression that he

286
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,480
would be able to figure a way out of it to make

287
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,050
somebody else be the fall guy for him. Like, I. I

288
00:17:17,050 --> 00:17:22,920
don't think he. He came, came too, too much. Like,

289
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,540
yeah, this is not gonna end well for me. so. So.

290
00:17:27,540 --> 00:17:28,780
Too scared about that?

291
00:17:29,660 --> 00:17:32,260
>> Will: Yeah. Yeah, I thought that. Yeah, I had the same

292
00:17:32,260 --> 00:17:34,380
reaction too whenever. When I saw that, I was

293
00:17:34,380 --> 00:17:36,300
like, oh, yeah, that. That makes total. That

294
00:17:36,300 --> 00:17:40,170
tracks. but, yeah, but you know, but I think too,

295
00:17:40,170 --> 00:17:44,060
as she, you know, there's like, yes, there's the.

296
00:17:44,060 --> 00:17:47,020
There's the Hand. But then, you know, I think her.

297
00:17:47,260 --> 00:17:52,520
The. Sorry, has title as, master Mistress of

298
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,080
whispers or whatever. And you know, so she, you

299
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:59,000
know, she has. She's definitely is the. The. The.

300
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:04,040
The queen's like, you know, confidant here. So

301
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,020
even if, like, you know, even though Allison is

302
00:18:07,020 --> 00:18:10,220
maybe more de facto Hand, as far as just the,

303
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,170
maybe the political advisor that Rhaenyra needs

304
00:18:14,610 --> 00:18:17,530
who's like, there's like the official small

305
00:18:17,530 --> 00:18:19,290
council, and like you said, then there's like,

306
00:18:19,290 --> 00:18:22,690
there's the Allison Council. So whenever Rhaenyra,

307
00:18:23,010 --> 00:18:25,290
which needs like a gut check or whatever, she can

308
00:18:25,290 --> 00:18:28,530
go to Allison to like, just check me on this here

309
00:18:28,530 --> 00:18:30,890
or, you know, which we've kind of seen that happen

310
00:18:30,890 --> 00:18:32,290
a little bit here in these episodes.

311
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,640
>> Sarah : Yeah. And I think what you're getting at with the

312
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:40,400
white worm is that she. Yes, I agree that she

313
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,880
definitely has some very quote unquote hand like

314
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,890
conversations with Rhaenyra. However, I think, her

315
00:18:48,050 --> 00:18:53,250
political presence on the council applies more to

316
00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:58,670
Rhaenyra's understanding of the common folk. and

317
00:18:58,910 --> 00:19:02,030
that is very different. That is insight that no

318
00:19:02,030 --> 00:19:06,510
noble can share with Rhaenyra. And. And that's why

319
00:19:06,830 --> 00:19:10,070
you see the. The. That's one of the many, many

320
00:19:10,070 --> 00:19:13,630
reasons why you see the disdain and distrust and

321
00:19:13,630 --> 00:19:16,990
annoyance from Daemon whenever he sees the white

322
00:19:16,990 --> 00:19:20,750
worm just warming her way into Rhaenyra's ear

323
00:19:20,830 --> 00:19:26,250
because it plays aside to her that he. He doesn't

324
00:19:26,250 --> 00:19:28,490
think is necessary and he doesn't want to

325
00:19:28,490 --> 00:19:31,170
understand. Granted, he's been a Targaryen his

326
00:19:31,170 --> 00:19:34,450
entire life and in fact part of the quote unquote

327
00:19:34,450 --> 00:19:38,929
royal family. So like, he's. He's not only a

328
00:19:38,929 --> 00:19:41,970
Targaryen, but he's also been like the part of the

329
00:19:41,970 --> 00:19:45,090
royal clan of it all. I mean, they all are, but.

330
00:19:45,170 --> 00:19:46,290
You know what I'm saying.

331
00:19:49,310 --> 00:19:49,790
>> Will: Yeah.

332
00:19:50,050 --> 00:19:53,970
>> Sarah : Yeah. And so has Allison. And that's the. That's

333
00:19:53,970 --> 00:19:58,170
the other thing. And. But Allison, like talking

334
00:19:58,170 --> 00:20:01,330
about political advising. She.

335
00:20:01,730 --> 00:20:05,490
Well, Ormond is enemy, public enemy number one

336
00:20:05,570 --> 00:20:10,730
right now, and he is a Hightower. So. So Rhaenyra

337
00:20:10,730 --> 00:20:13,250
can only go to Alice said to get more information.

338
00:20:13,970 --> 00:20:17,730
And the only thing she learns is really, well, he

339
00:20:17,730 --> 00:20:23,870
disdains od. I was like, oh, I can't wait to see

340
00:20:23,870 --> 00:20:33,190
that pay off. Yeah, but. But we also. More so. I

341
00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:36,430
just like that line and the whole conversation

342
00:20:36,750 --> 00:20:41,350
about. It's. It's almost like a chess game, this

343
00:20:41,350 --> 00:20:43,630
conversation, because we learn that piece of

344
00:20:43,630 --> 00:20:47,110
detail at the very end of it, and it's almost as

345
00:20:47,110 --> 00:20:50,980
if it wasn't going to be said at first because she

346
00:20:50,980 --> 00:20:55,460
says, because then they inquire because Rhaenyra

347
00:20:55,460 --> 00:20:57,500
refuses to believe that Alison knows nothing

348
00:20:57,660 --> 00:21:03,500
because she did send her son to him as his ward.

349
00:21:03,820 --> 00:21:07,500
So. So there has to be some information she is

350
00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:11,730
aware about. And. And Allison basically explains

351
00:21:12,050 --> 00:21:16,170
it was my choice. I bore Viserys 3 Targaryens, and

352
00:21:16,170 --> 00:21:18,770
I wanted my youngest one to be a Hightower.

353
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:23,920
Perhaps sending Darren away was my truest act as

354
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,400
of motherhood, though I do not know what fate that

355
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,760
choice has consigned him now. And. And I just. The

356
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:37,280
silence and. And the immediate like, you know,

357
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,170
Allison or, Rhaenyra knows exactly what she means

358
00:21:40,170 --> 00:21:43,010
by that. And I like how she looks at Helena and

359
00:21:43,010 --> 00:21:44,810
looks back at Allison and is like, well, you know,

360
00:21:44,810 --> 00:21:48,500
I would have spared him. And there was no and then

361
00:21:48,900 --> 00:21:51,140
if you just thought it couldn't get better.

362
00:21:51,220 --> 00:21:54,500
Allison does not really necessarily agree or

363
00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:58,020
disagree with that. All she says takes a moment,

364
00:21:58,020 --> 00:22:03,330
and she just says, well, he. He hates, smells. So.

365
00:22:04,770 --> 00:22:09,060
But it's. It's, a very much a. A game of chess

366
00:22:09,060 --> 00:22:13,140
that they just played because they're. They have

367
00:22:13,140 --> 00:22:18,470
both now lost sons and family members and Don't.

368
00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:23,390
Do not forget Allison is not there of her own,

369
00:22:23,630 --> 00:22:27,150
like, wantingness to stay in King's Landing. Like

370
00:22:27,150 --> 00:22:30,030
she is only there. She's being kept prisoner

371
00:22:30,350 --> 00:22:33,510
again. I mean, she has never really, maybe up

372
00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:38,110
until the age of 16, was she free, but after that.

373
00:22:38,990 --> 00:22:41,680
>> Will: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And then, you know, she's

374
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,120
their prisoner. I mean, there's so many prisoners

375
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,240
of, of things here. Darren in his own ways of

376
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,240
prisoner. I know we'll get more into that when we.

377
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,160
When we, you know, talk more about Ormond and, and

378
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,470
all. But you know, there's. There's just so many.

379
00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:57,190
What I really enjoyed about this episode was just.

380
00:22:57,190 --> 00:23:00,670
This is so. And where. Where I'm just really

381
00:23:00,670 --> 00:23:03,670
enjoying the season overall. There's just so many

382
00:23:03,750 --> 00:23:07,910
like, levels here and there's just such subtext

383
00:23:07,910 --> 00:23:11,790
within, within these, these conversations and,

384
00:23:12,510 --> 00:23:17,000
and, and, and so whenever we get, whenever, you

385
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,120
know, like I said, we, this episode, you know,

386
00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:21,920
last week we. We shrank the world a bit just to

387
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,520
really focus on Rhaenyra's first day as queen. Now

388
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,800
we're back, you know, we're expanding things out.

389
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,560
We're all over Westeros. We know we're in road

390
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,890
when, you know, Brooks Rest where. Where, you up

391
00:23:32,890 --> 00:23:35,450
in the veil. We're, we're. We haven't, you know,

392
00:23:35,450 --> 00:23:38,650
we haven't seen Oldtown, but it's been referenced

393
00:23:38,650 --> 00:23:40,570
a lot. So, you know, and of course Tumbleton as

394
00:23:40,570 --> 00:23:45,370
well. So this week was a lot. And, and they. All

395
00:23:45,370 --> 00:23:50,970
these, all these stories are like interwoven, you

396
00:23:50,970 --> 00:23:53,520
know, it's something you said last week was, You

397
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,640
know, whenever you have all the families together,

398
00:23:56,150 --> 00:24:00,470
you know, things really pop and, and, and. And you

399
00:24:00,470 --> 00:24:03,430
know, and I feel like that is going on this week

400
00:24:03,430 --> 00:24:05,990
too. Even though sometimes people, you know, even

401
00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:08,230
though like for example, Damon didn't come back to

402
00:24:08,630 --> 00:24:12,790
King's Landing until later, the stories in these.

403
00:24:13,030 --> 00:24:15,870
All these stories in this episode were so

404
00:24:15,870 --> 00:24:17,870
interwoven. I felt like, you know, that everything

405
00:24:17,870 --> 00:24:20,070
is really playing well off of each other because,

406
00:24:20,390 --> 00:24:21,990
you know, and it's driving things forward.

407
00:24:22,940 --> 00:24:23,820
>> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah.

408
00:24:24,140 --> 00:24:27,170
I wanna, I wanna talk about Darren right now. as

409
00:24:27,170 --> 00:24:31,610
we're talking about Alicent because seeing Alicent

410
00:24:31,770 --> 00:24:34,970
and then seeing so much of Darren in this episode,

411
00:24:35,130 --> 00:24:37,290
I have a few things I need to throw out there.

412
00:24:38,170 --> 00:24:41,770
Hey, is his hair dyed or is that. Yes.

413
00:24:42,810 --> 00:24:43,290
>> Will: Yeah.

414
00:24:43,530 --> 00:24:46,850
>> Sarah : Okay. Did Ormond diet or is that his natural hair?

415
00:24:46,850 --> 00:24:50,950
I. I don't know. But that was really good casting

416
00:24:51,030 --> 00:24:55,710
also because from far away I couldn't see it and I

417
00:24:55,710 --> 00:24:58,110
was like, man, that kid takes after his mom

418
00:24:58,110 --> 00:25:01,230
because the long brown hair. And then there was a

419
00:25:01,230 --> 00:25:04,670
close up and I was just like, oh my God, it is

420
00:25:04,670 --> 00:25:08,710
Aegon a little bit younger and with long brown

421
00:25:08,710 --> 00:25:12,070
hair. And it was just. I was like that is really

422
00:25:12,150 --> 00:25:15,310
good casting. And, and so I'm glad that we not

423
00:25:15,310 --> 00:25:18,920
only saw. Saw Alicent, but we also saw Aegon in

424
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,880
this episode. Because those facial features, I'm

425
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,880
just like, oh my God, they look more alike than

426
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,240
Aegon and Aemond.

427
00:25:29,820 --> 00:25:33,100
but I also, I mean you brought up the prisoner

428
00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:38,500
situation and so because you brought that up, it

429
00:25:38,500 --> 00:25:42,980
goes back to that quote from Alison. Like, do you.

430
00:25:45,060 --> 00:25:49,500
What, what are your thoughts now? Seeing some of

431
00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:53,620
the nuances of the dynamic between Darren and, and

432
00:25:53,620 --> 00:25:57,490
Ormond? was it just the exchange of one prison for

433
00:25:57,490 --> 00:26:00,330
another? One father for another?

434
00:26:01,530 --> 00:26:05,360
>> Will: Yeah, I think so. I mean, yeah, yeah. because you

435
00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:08,180
know, we, we in that relationship, you know,

436
00:26:08,180 --> 00:26:11,540
there's, you know, there's. So I think it's a very

437
00:26:11,540 --> 00:26:16,510
complicated relationship because the. I think

438
00:26:16,510 --> 00:26:19,870
Ormond does look very favorite, you know, does

439
00:26:19,870 --> 00:26:27,730
have that fatherly you know, hand on, on Darren,

440
00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:30,420
and trying to guide him, trying to help him, you

441
00:26:30,420 --> 00:26:33,060
know. And really, you know, we, we talked about it

442
00:26:33,060 --> 00:26:39,620
earlier, like for example, how he was really

443
00:26:39,620 --> 00:26:41,420
getting into the black art, you know, the black

444
00:26:41,420 --> 00:26:43,740
magic of the dragons and the Targaryens and you

445
00:26:43,740 --> 00:26:45,620
know, really, you know, you should go to Hightower

446
00:26:45,620 --> 00:26:48,260
way because we're more pure and, and you know, you

447
00:26:48,260 --> 00:26:51,460
don't want to, you know, go down this dark path

448
00:26:51,460 --> 00:26:53,900
with, with these people and these dragons and all

449
00:26:53,900 --> 00:26:57,720
that kind of stuff. And then also, and he's also

450
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,320
trying to, you know, he's also manipulating a

451
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:06,040
situation too where he was like whenever the, the

452
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,160
commoners were. Were there in the, in the room

453
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,960
after, you know, you know, Darren Orman did the

454
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,440
big public thing of like, you know, I'm a show

455
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,480
how, you know, show justice and, and we're doing

456
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,800
the right thing for the, you know, for the people

457
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,320
because of this. This soldier tried to, you know,

458
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:25,800
tried to assault Hugh's wife.

459
00:27:26,250 --> 00:27:26,360
>> Sarah : Yeah.

460
00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:32,120
>> Will: and then, then we get the real Orman there behind

461
00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:35,360
closed doors and, and, and it's like, you know,

462
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:39,360
manipulating there and like, okay, here's. And

463
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:41,320
teaching the lessons of being a ruler. Like here's

464
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,040
how you got, here's how you got to be ruthless and

465
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,880
you gotta like, you know, meet out punishment and

466
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,520
stuff. And so it's like, it's just a duality

467
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:48,840
there.

468
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,030
>> Sarah : Yeah, there absolutely is a duality. And I think

469
00:27:53,030 --> 00:27:56,390
they, they did that, structured it really well to

470
00:27:56,390 --> 00:27:59,990
put it on display and to the unweaving of his

471
00:27:59,990 --> 00:28:07,580
character throughout the episode. But he's, I

472
00:28:07,580 --> 00:28:14,660
think with the scheming part of him, it's, it's.

473
00:28:14,660 --> 00:28:19,590
It's more like he had, He will always have a 8

474
00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:23,990
plan A, B and C. Yeah, he never has, he never has

475
00:28:23,990 --> 00:28:28,390
just one plan. And so, and so to me, I don't know

476
00:28:28,390 --> 00:28:32,310
if I would qualify purely as manipulation with it,

477
00:28:32,550 --> 00:28:38,550
but, but because there, There is that tantrum

478
00:28:38,550 --> 00:28:42,320
scene, where. Where it's very clear that Veigar is

479
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,530
not going to come and save the day. And they, they

480
00:28:46,530 --> 00:28:49,810
set that up very well of how. How much his current

481
00:28:49,970 --> 00:28:54,370
plan depends on Veigar. So. And then as soon as

482
00:28:54,370 --> 00:28:56,530
he's done throwing the tantrum, he says we gotta

483
00:28:56,530 --> 00:29:00,850
pivot. And then you get the scene where you bring

484
00:29:00,930 --> 00:29:08,120
back the guy who, who try defended his sister and,

485
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:14,730
and it's just like. Yeah, but he, he did, defend

486
00:29:14,730 --> 00:29:17,810
her against one of your soldiers. And that's an

487
00:29:17,810 --> 00:29:21,250
extension of the Hand, which parallels a

488
00:29:21,250 --> 00:29:24,370
conversation between Ulf and Rhaenyra.

489
00:29:24,690 --> 00:29:29,740
So I, as much as, and this is why I think it works

490
00:29:29,740 --> 00:29:34,140
so well is that as much of this episode is an

491
00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:40,100
unweaving of Ormond's character and we spend so

492
00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:44,540
much time with him and Darren M. During that there

493
00:29:44,540 --> 00:29:47,460
are many situations that they purposely parallel

494
00:29:47,460 --> 00:29:48,860
with Rhaenyra.

495
00:29:49,420 --> 00:29:50,420
>> Will: Yeah, yeah.

496
00:29:50,420 --> 00:29:55,020
>> Sarah : And, and, and so we learn more about them. So

497
00:29:55,020 --> 00:29:57,720
like, like back to what you've been saying now, a

498
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,440
couple of times with all the different characters,

499
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,240
like to an extent we are still going through

500
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,460
King's Landing through the Rhaenyra's perspective

501
00:30:08,460 --> 00:30:11,780
and there's still so much story about her state.

502
00:30:11,940 --> 00:30:14,660
We're just seeing things gets fleshed out

503
00:30:14,740 --> 00:30:18,870
elsewhere, that still just all go back to

504
00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:23,070
Rhaenyra. and. And one of my big Orman questions

505
00:30:23,710 --> 00:30:26,790
that I had for you tonight, speaking about the

506
00:30:26,790 --> 00:30:33,010
tantrum scene. is he sexist? Because. Oh yeah, I,

507
00:30:33,250 --> 00:30:39,010
I don't think it's only a Targaryen thing. No, I.

508
00:30:39,250 --> 00:30:43,170
The number of times he used the word cunt. I don't

509
00:30:43,170 --> 00:30:47,090
think this was. I think if anybody. I think if

510
00:30:47,250 --> 00:30:50,730
Alicent his cousin would have been appointed

511
00:30:50,730 --> 00:30:55,610
Queen, he would have still been figuring out a way

512
00:30:55,610 --> 00:31:00,000
to usurp her. So there. You cannot tell me that

513
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,920
this is just because he thinks the High Towers are

514
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,010
a. Are better. But I also think that that's a, A

515
00:31:07,010 --> 00:31:11,890
very nice characteristic for Orman to have,

516
00:31:12,290 --> 00:31:16,450
considering again, you're you're tying him so

517
00:31:16,450 --> 00:31:22,130
heavily to this. This religious, which are very

518
00:31:22,290 --> 00:31:29,930
old and very, very, specific about what is natural

519
00:31:29,930 --> 00:31:32,980
and what is unnatural. And, and there's a lot of

520
00:31:33,620 --> 00:31:38,900
sexism and racism in the text. So I, I found. I

521
00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:43,800
found that to be, very interesting, side that I

522
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,600
was not expecting, because we. I. I don't know if

523
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:54,040
it's played out, but we. You gotta add nuance to

524
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,720
this disdain for the Targaryens, because between

525
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,180
this, the first half of this season and between a

526
00:32:01,180 --> 00:32:04,260
Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, Targaryens get a lot

527
00:32:04,260 --> 00:32:08,220
of hate. Rightfully so, to an extent. Rightfully

528
00:32:08,220 --> 00:32:12,780
so, but still. And, and, and to go back to the

529
00:32:12,780 --> 00:32:17,380
extent part of it all, like his relationship with

530
00:32:17,380 --> 00:32:22,420
Darren, again, a Targaryen, male Targaryen,

531
00:32:22,660 --> 00:32:25,140
someone who he has raised since what, the age of

532
00:32:25,140 --> 00:32:25,880
like five? Five.

533
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:26,960
>> Will: Five, yeah.

534
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:27,880
>> Sarah : five.

535
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,800
So here's my other question to you, Will, about

536
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:33,320
their relationship.

537
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:34,760
>> Will: Yeah.

538
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:39,530
>> Sarah : Was there abuse? And, And I'm. When I say abuse, I

539
00:32:39,530 --> 00:32:40,530
want to clarify.

540
00:32:41,169 --> 00:32:41,649
>> Will: Yeah.

541
00:32:41,650 --> 00:32:44,530
>> Sarah : Do you think there was ever physical abuse?

542
00:32:48,530 --> 00:32:55,480
>> Will: So, given that he is. Since Darren is royalty. No,

543
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,680
that's the only reason why. But I do think

544
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,200
there's. But I do think there was definitely

545
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,560
emotional abuse. And, and because. Because

546
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,680
whenever, for example, whenever they, Whenever

547
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,640
Ormond did crash out, you know, he, He. He knew

548
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:13,320
what was coming.

549
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,800
>> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah.

550
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,920
>> Will: You know, so he said he sent the aid out of the

551
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,390
room. He's like, you know, so, you know, know. So,

552
00:33:20,340 --> 00:33:23,050
Barrasso from Andor, you know, stayed in the room.

553
00:33:23,290 --> 00:33:25,890
But he sent the, you know, he sent everybody. He

554
00:33:25,890 --> 00:33:27,930
cleared the room because he knew what was coming.

555
00:33:28,330 --> 00:33:30,650
So I think there was some definitely emotional

556
00:33:30,650 --> 00:33:34,510
things that happened there that, And also, even,

557
00:33:34,510 --> 00:33:37,230
like, you know, the, you know, I think the,

558
00:33:38,039 --> 00:33:41,880
Darren's dragon also knows, you know, from the

559
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,850
emotional standpoint of, you know, animals sense

560
00:33:45,850 --> 00:33:49,410
things. So I think there, you know, so I think

561
00:33:49,410 --> 00:33:51,210
there was definitely some of that. But physical,

562
00:33:51,210 --> 00:33:53,330
no, because of just of who he is.

563
00:33:54,050 --> 00:33:59,450
>> Sarah : See, I can go both ways. Because. And you bring up

564
00:33:59,450 --> 00:34:02,290
Thessian at the end. And that's the only reason

565
00:34:02,370 --> 00:34:05,570
why I would think that there was actual physical

566
00:34:05,570 --> 00:34:09,570
abuse at one point, because that Sethi, that

567
00:34:09,570 --> 00:34:14,790
dragon, also very much like his rider or her

568
00:34:14,790 --> 00:34:19,590
rider, got sent to Ormond probably when they were

569
00:34:19,590 --> 00:34:23,590
not able to defend the rider. So if there was any

570
00:34:23,590 --> 00:34:27,270
type of physical abuse, it happened young. And

571
00:34:27,830 --> 00:34:30,950
again, there's a reason why the dragon is chained

572
00:34:30,950 --> 00:34:34,670
up. There's a reason why the. Any time in that

573
00:34:34,670 --> 00:34:39,370
scene, Ormin steps forward, he the dragon gets

574
00:34:39,370 --> 00:34:43,330
defenses. Like, do not come near this kid. Like,

575
00:34:43,490 --> 00:34:48,530
no, I'm protecting. Like you. I. I think that they

576
00:34:48,530 --> 00:34:52,050
do a good job. And. And I know I say that only

577
00:34:52,450 --> 00:34:55,170
every other line about this episode and the show

578
00:34:55,170 --> 00:34:59,610
so far this season in particular, but there's so

579
00:34:59,610 --> 00:35:04,350
many nuances where on one hand, you could also

580
00:35:04,350 --> 00:35:07,310
interpret that scene and that. That moment where

581
00:35:07,310 --> 00:35:12,350
Darren says, get out as well. Is he protecting the

582
00:35:12,430 --> 00:35:15,630
servant from potentially Ormond laughing out,

583
00:35:15,630 --> 00:35:20,430
lashing out on them? Or is he protecting Ormond

584
00:35:20,750 --> 00:35:24,430
from showing who he actually is as a ruler?

585
00:35:24,430 --> 00:35:29,110
Because he knows the guys. He knows that we see at

586
00:35:29,110 --> 00:35:31,190
the very beginning of the episode when he's

587
00:35:31,190 --> 00:35:33,470
talking to the nobles of Tom.