Lilia's Journey in Agatha All Along Ep 7 & The Penguin's Episode 6 Shocking Twist!

0:11 >> Sarah : Greetings, nerds. This is Scene N Nerd. I'm your host, Sarah Belmont, and with me, as always, is our Mr. Producer, Will Will Polk. How are you doing tonight, Will? >> Will: Doing very well, Sarah. Happy Tuesday evening to you. >> Sarah : Tuesday and next week is election day. >> Will: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Make sure you go vote, vote your conscience. I'm not going to tell you how you should vote or anything, but, it is a very important election. So both for presidential race as well as in many states around the country, big races. So exercise, your constitutional right. I early voted this past Sunday. Felt so good. >> Sarah : Are, ah, we going to record on election day?

0:51 >> Will: I was going to talk to you about that. I was thinking maybe we should either do it the night before, or if the Republic is still standing, we could do it the night after. >> Sarah : that is, the Will Super Bowl. So people go support. >> Will: Yeah. Ah, because Good Lord. By Panthers probably. You know, at this rate, it'll probably be celebrating our 30th anniversary and it'll probably be 30 years before they show up in the super bowl again. >> Sarah : Yeah. >> Will: Oh, gosh. >> Sarah : Every now and then I see your. Your tweets about football, and I just think to myself, there was a time growing up like, I have three brothers. In case listeners are new, I'm very well aware of football. I've been a fan of football. I was a big fan of the Colts back in the day with Peyton Manning and, that. It's a beautiful thing, yet it is so, so hard.

1:50 >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : Like, even. Even now, every now and then I think I've casually watched maybe the super bowl or something, and I'm not even technically a fan. And yet I, in my gut, I'm like, oh, I want this team to win. And then as the tides change, I'm like, dear Lord, no, no. And I'm like, why am I so invested? It's. It's the most bizarre experience. >> Will: Oh, yeah. Well, that's the great thing about sport. To me. There was not, like, there was a game Sunday evening, the Commanders and the, Bears, and it was like a Hail Mary and, you know, got tipped and the, and the Chicago player was like, taunting the fans. And then he was like realizing, oh, my God, it's a Hail Mary, like, ran back over, but by then it got tipped and the Washington player caught it and it was just like, everybody just erupted. I don't. I don't even like Washington, but I was like, holy, that was a play. So.

2:46 >> Sarah : Right, right. Like, you don't, Honestly, sometimes it doesn't matter who made the play. It's just like, if it's a good play, it's a good play. It's just like, oh, yay, these two rival teams are playing each other, yet the game is boring. You just, at the end of the day, honestly just want a good game. Exactly as emotional of a roller coaster ride you will go on. You just want a good game. Just. Just like with a movie or a TV show. >> Will: Yep. >> Sarah : you honestly just want it to be good. >> Will: Yes. Yes. And we've been very fortunate this past month that we've had two really m.

3:27 Truly good, really, really good shows. >> Sarah : Yes. Yes. Before we get into those shows, I do want to pick your brain because I know we have talked about Daredevil before and you did not watch the Netflix runs, as is well known around here. Yep, I did. but since Daredevil Born Again is set to premiere on March 4, 2025, there has been, there was shown some trailers, but I don't think anything has officially been released. We know we're getting, Punisher. We know we're getting all of the usual suspects. so as we get closer to March, what are your feelings about this show, considering, like, your history with the character?

4:20 >> Will: Yeah, so given my history with the character, you know, it's almost like I'm approaching this show. Like I did House of the Dragon because I didn't watch Game of Thrones either, you know, so, yeah, so I'm coming into it fresh. I have. I can come into it with no, really no expectations other than, you know, as far as, like, trying to compare it between the Netflix show versus tomorrow, you know, the dc, Disney plus show, you know, and, you know, everything I know about the show. I mean, you know, I did watch some of the other Netflix show, like Jessica Jones and, And, oh, God, Iron Fist, which was probably not. Probably not, you know, not the one that you want to remember. But, but with Daredevil, I. I'm looking forward to it just, from everyone like you and, you know, some other friends, that I have, who's one of my good friends, he's a big Daredevil Netflix fan. And, so I'm looking forward to it. And like I said, I'm just going to be able to watch it with, untainted eyes and measure it just on its merits as a Disney show. and especially given the up and down history of Disney shows, I'm very curious to see how you're going to react to it.

5:43 >> Sarah : Yeah, well, I mean, don't forget, we've already seen him in she, Hulk, and earlier this year in Echo. >> Will: Yeah, true. >> Sarah : So. So we got. We got a little bit of some appetizers as they've been breadcrumbing this homecoming of the character and of what was started and left on. Not. There's been worse, TV shows to live, like, like, kind of leave things, open ended and yet get canceled. but it definitely didn't feel as though it was the end of the story. and. And my. I'm. I'm looking forward.

6:29 I'm. I'm kind of keeping it as at a distance. I'm. I mean, to go back to your point about Game of Thrones, I'm approaching it kind of the same way as Last of Us, where I, I'm not saying that I read the comics or anything, but I have an idea of what they're probably gonna end up doing based on theories when they. When, the original series was airing on Netflix, so. And if they do that, then we're in for a good ride. And if they don't, then maybe we're still in it for a good ride. I don't know. >> Will: Yeah. Yeah. >> Sarah : I'm not one to theory spiral myself into not liking something that I haven't watched yet.

7:16 >> Will: Exactly. Just because. Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah. that's one of the things I admire about you is just because something doesn't go according to your head cannon, you know, you're not like a lot of people out there who just like, if it didn't go to. According to your head canon, then the show automatically sucks. So. Yeah. >> Sarah : Yeah, yeah. I think. I think WandaVision, kind of the lesson learned of that has stayed with me over the last four years. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : I think before, pre WandaVision, I was very much willing to theory spiral. I mean, I read Arrow fan fiction all day. All day.

8:01 But I think. I think it's almost as though the Arrowverse kind of for us, like, let. Let a foundation of. And a lot of lessons learned about how. How the shows. And so now the level that we're receiving these shows, the expectations have changed. And also the. Let's not theory spiral to the point where we're writing a separate script and then get upset when the writers don't follow what we've written in our own mind. >> Will: Exactly. >> Sarah : And honestly, like, it's just about trust. And this leads us into Agatha all along because I just. By the end of this episode, the only thing that I can really say to some of my thoughts Is this episode is arguably one of the best examples of an episode in a season that you didn't think you needed, but when it airs you're like, damn, I didn't know that I needed that in the story for a number of reasons that we're going to get into, but I'm sure as hell I got that. And

9:32 the only other thing I'm going to point out before I'm going to let you share your overthoughts is that, I. Literally the first scene I wrote down this not knowing any of the context about what was to come, but just the Good Witch parenthesis. Lilia falls from grace. Yeah, I, I did not, I did not know. It just looked like I was like, wow, she's dressed. Just that that imagery stuck in my head and I'm like the Good Witch. but, but yeah, so that is my starting points on Agatha along episode seven, Death Hand in mine. Will, what about you?

10:15 >> Will: Yeah, I, I'm there with you. I mean this was as it was in our earlier thoughts about TV shows and stuff and thinking about, as I mentioned, you know, the up and down nature of some of the shows on Disney plus, this definitely Will, when I watch this episode. I haven't had a, A verbal out loud reaction to a show on Disney, a Marvel show in Disney in a very long time. I think the last one was maybe, I guess Loki was the last. The Loki finale. Whenever. Yeah, that was one where I was just like, damn. And so in this episode that's. I had that moment, with, with Lila with. When she turned that card over and the towers flipped and, and, and I saw what was transpiring there. And to your point about the. The Good Witch falls from Grace, I had that, that was, you know, this, that.

11:17 Because it was a very, you know, non. Linear stories can go. They could either work really well or they can go sideways. And this was, this was Chef's Kiss. As far as a nonlinear story with cutbacks and flashbacks and everything that I haven't, you know, it was so well executed and just when they had that moment and they pulled everything together, I was like, yeah, yeah, this show, this, this is, this show is, is like probably, you know, this week I will say this show was my favorite show of the week between Agatha and Penguin. >> Sarah : I am so glad you said that. I am so glad you said that because I will be honest, I was waiting for my turn to say that and for you to be mad at me.

12:07 >> Will: And not to say bingo was bad, but I mean this Was this was. I mean I was. And I watched it again tonight right before we recorded just to see if my gut reaction was the same. And it was. I mean I just like this was a solid. This is a well executed 40, minutes television. >> Sarah : Yeah. I, have not rewatched it. I've been a bit busy. But it is something that if I ever, after the show is over, maybe end up this weekend, I might say I just want to throw that back on just because I'm sure I miss things and because there was so much going on and it was non told non linearly.

12:52 But I guess so, man. Because it's non linear storytelling. It's very like we. It's almost as though it's a challenge when we already review shows non linearly. Non sequential. >> Will: It falls right in our wheelhouse. >> Sarah : Right? It should, it should. So. But I guess, I guess a good starting point is just how last week in particular with Billy's origin story, we meet Lilia right in the beginning as the fortune teller and we have the tower reversed line. We also commented last week about how it was as though she was possessed.

13:48 But. And, and, and that was just so that conversation we had last week stuck in my mind as soon as we started realizing some of what was happening with Lilia and just how much she's actually. Her power and her abilities are, connected to time in a way that we had no idea. Although. And I think this is why the non linearness worked so well, is because they flashed to the breadcrumbs that they were laying throughout all of the previous episodes. even the episodes that were arguably some like the worst of the season. You're just like, oh, I forgot about that moment at the time that stuck out to me when they were trapped in the house that was being flooded.

14:46 But I had forgotten about that. but now it makes sense and, and I'm really glad. So I just really appreciate how the, the writers were smart enough where it didn't come out of nowhere. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : And they had planted enough seeds, but the seeds were deep enough where you also didn't even suspect it. >> Will: Yeah, that's. And I think that's why I was so. Especially when I, When I, And the reason why I did rewatch it, because there was just so much. And I think I just wanted to like go back and like pick up those. See those cues again. Like as you were mentioning that from the prior episodes and they did. I mean, especially when it's like, is she cookie?

15:33 You know, it was like all, all those Little things that they just. They just laid the foundation. And I just. That's the type of storytelling that I've been missing out of the mcu. Some, of these Disney plus shows is just the. That. That solid, that storytelling foundation. And then. And then they executed it. I know. And I was looking at the credits and noted Jack Schaefer, who was the, showrunners for both this show and WandaVision, was, the director. She didn't write it this time. But, But I think just the way this episode was directed, you know, it's like that. That. That peak, you know, ship of thesis moment in WandaVision, you know, those standout moments in Wandavision that. That made, you know, that set the bar so high for. For Disney plus shows. And that was. I felt that same way when I was watching this episode. And also to your point, as you. As you mentioned earlier about, you know, we had Billy's story, you know, last last week and. And then. And then whenever Billy and Agatha were trying to, figure out the tarot cards and the readings and. And just stumbling through it.

16:49 >> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think. I think it very quickly also answered, or it resolves something from last week and the fact that I pointed out, like, how is it that Agatha is only one alive? Yeah, I mean, like, what did she do? And we had no idea. Well, it turns out neither Jennifer nor Lilia died. They just ended up in the tunnels. And very conveniently we're able to. Well, conveniently and also just because of Lilia's gift, be able to navigate very quickly to figure out where to go. because this last trial is all about tarot cards and rolls up into, ah, Lilia's overall power set, if you will.

17:47 And, something that I think that the writers did a good job in, in this episode is also reinforcing that idea that all of these witches who joined this cousin coven for different reasons have either have what we perceived as lost their powers and that's what they want. But it turns out with Lilia over the course of this episode, which was surprising. No, no, no. She has always had her power. She's just learned over time, over centuries, how to mute it per se.

18:28 Because when you have that ability to go through time the way she does, she ultimately just focused on the death of it all. And that's why this episode is called Death's Hand in Mine, is because we find out that she did have a coven when she was growing up and when she was really coming into her own abilities. And then she could see the future. But she couldn't do anything to stop it. So she couldn't do anything to protect her coven. And that's why the moment, the self sacrifice at the end is so important in such a good way to. To end this. This journey for her is because she was able to do for them what she wasn't in the past.

19:25 >> Will: Yeah. >> Will: And yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the. Yeah. That fear, you know, because I was just thinking about that. That was another thing that was really, really resonated with, with me in this. With. With her journey as we. As we learn more about why that she held back from it. Because she can go from literally having the time of her life to flash into the point where she sees her in, quite, frankly, the way the episode began. So when you think about it from that standpoint, if you had the power to divination like that and see events, you know, you know, how would you react to that? And I think that was one of the things that. That really also resonated with me in this episode too, as a viewer is just like, okay, you know, I could see why she, why she went down the path that she did.

20:20 and, and you know, and you know, and even like, and even whenever she was reading the tarot cards to Billy, whenever, Whenever they did finally figure out what was going on, and he was, you know, asking the questions and you know, Billy asked the question like, am m I Billy or am I William Kaplan? You know, she, you know, I think her. She didn't answer the question because I think part of it is like, you know, she wanted to allow him that same journey of self. Self journey of self. Accurate, you know, actualization and figuring out who he is and not. Not answer that question for him because, you know, otherwise, you know, he. The lessons that she's learned along the way and to get to that point where we saw in the end episode where she realized that she had to make that sacrifice. You know, Billy's got to have Billy Williams got to have teen or has got to have that journey for himself, and she can't answer that for him. And I thought that was another really strong thing about that.

21:19 >> Sarah : So too, I didn't think that she couldn't answer it. >> Will: No, she was. No, she wouldn't answer it, as you meant to say. I meant to say that's what I meant to say. She wouldn't answer the question for him. >> Sarah : Well, that was, that was his question for the tarot card reading. Right. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : And. But she couldn't she. She didn't finish it because she realized that it. What, like the game. they weren't. If. Even if they. She had played the final few cards, because I think she got, like, halfway through. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : it wouldn't have stopped the trial because the trial wasn't about Billy. It was about her. She's the Traveler.

22:01 He's not the Traveler. And. But that does bring up something I wanted to point out. I thought that coming off of last week, where we end with just Agatha and Billy and we get so much information about Billy and these two are main characters to then go into this episode. And they. They did a very smart job about leading us with. With those two characters still asking questions. I like the question, is Wanda Maximus really dead? And just the distrust between these two. And then. And then slowly, but not too slowly, also getting this B storyline with Lilia. And then about 20 minutes in, it's like, no, no, no, this isn't. This isn't Agatha and Billy's episode. No, this is Lilia. Like, it makes a quick turn. But they had to do that because even though this is Lilia's episode, it still doesn't take away from Agatha or Billy's parts and their journeys. because those questions from last week viewers still also have in their mind. so.

23:28 >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that was another. Yeah, I think that's. That was another, like, highlight for the episode too. It's just, And also, you know, I love that. I love Agatha's line, you know, x. You know, you know, trying to get straight answers. Not, you know, I like. >> Sarah : I like trying to find a straight. >> Will: Straight lady. >> Sarah : Yeah, you guys find a straight witch. Yep. Yep. That was. That was a. A great quote from the episode, for sure. >> Will: Yeah. Yeah. And because it has so many levels to it. I mean, not only, you know, the. One of the big things is just like, even, like, whenever, you know, whenever Lila and Billy and the team were like, you know, the querent. And he's like. He's like. You mean the querent. So, yeah, just.

24:13 Yeah, you know, and so, you know, really digs that. So that same line from Agatha, just, you know, really digs into this. You know, they're not hiding the fact that she's. That she's queer. And, you know, it gets back to the relationship with her and Rio. Yeah, yeah. >> Sarah : Which. Which we learn a little bit about because, man, I completely forgot about Rio. Completely forgot about her. And then. And then. So. So at the beginning, during Bill M. When Billy and Agatha start. Start Their way to the next trial Rio's brought up. And. And it sounded. It was almost inferred that Agatha did something to her during the havoc of that scene with Billy coming out.

25:03 and then later through, Leela or Lilia. I swear I'm apologizing to our listeners right now. I'm pretty sure we've pronounced this character's name differently at least five or ten times. Oh, yeah, I can't remember exactly. is that. Is that, she. Rio? Is Death the ak. The original green witch? >> Will: Yep. What can I say? I like the bad ones. >> Sarah : I like the bad boys. Is this, like, new? His, like, is original green witch really? Death? Like, I'm confused.

25:44 >> Will: I mean, at least in the context of this show. I mean, I think. Yeah. I mean, because remember, what was it in when they were. Was episode five, whenever the green witch showed up? they were trying to conjure the green witch, if I recall. Oh, gosh, earlier. Like, what did. Whenever they. When they first summoned Rio, weren't they trying to summon the green witch? >> Sarah : Oh, the. Oh, okay, okay. The green witch. So I was thinking about the witch from the wizard of Oz that Agatha was dressed up as, this episode, not the green Witch, who we thought at the very beginning of this series was, Mrs. Hart.

26:30 >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Sarah : But Mrs. Hart dead. You know what? Mrs. Hart, if you're listening, please return and be like, I'm not dead. I just made you think I was. >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, you know, since Mrs. Hart was, they needed to. Someone add to the dir. And the coven. Yeah. So they. Yeah, so that's when she showed up. >> Sarah : Well, they needed a green witch because each of the trials. And I mean, h. Have. Have we experienced the Green witch trial? Because I don't. I felt like, Mrs. Hart was taken out early. >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Sarah : I don't know. I don't know. But okay, that, that makes more sense. So.

27:12 >> Will: Yeah. I mean. Yeah, And I think they were just having, you know, I think, you know, clearly they had Agatha, show up as the. The Green Witch. Just, you know, just, the Wicked Witch. Yeah. Just for fun. But. Yeah, but at the end of the day, no, she. She's not. >> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, still, again, with all the lines about cultural culture appropriation. >> Will: Yes. Yes. That was a nice touch. Yeah, that was. Yeah. >> Sarah : Yeah, yeah. It can. It just dawned on me how. How layered of a joke that is, considering all the history of Disney and culture appropriation. So.

27:58 Yeah. Yeah. The writers are getting their. Their. Their giggles for sure. >> Will: Yeah. Totally are. I mean, because. Yeah. Because we had that a few weeks. Yeah. With the broomsticks. And now this one. This episode. So. Yeah, every. I think there's always at least one reference to that in each episode in some form or fashion. >> Sarah : Yeah. Lately. Lately there has been, And. And then next week will be our C'est la vie as they close with episode eight and nine and tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah. It's just. I think so far. And granted, we haven't watched the last two episodes. They haven't even aired yet. But I feel as though Agatha along has done is. Has they started off strong. There was a dip, but it wasn't a dip to like. Can we please stop watching this?

28:58 >> Will: Yeah, yeah. >> Sarah : It just got a little bit more silly. But now, especially with the last two episodes, it's just like. It was silly, but it was still doing things to set up to the foundation that got us here. And. Good, Good Lord, what they've set up for those final two episodes. But I'm. I'm very excited and I'm very happy that we have circled back to this because, It. Overall, it's. It's. It's just a season of TV that we didn't think we wanted nor needed at this point. But so far I'm pretty. I'm pretty glad we. We got it and, it's doing well, from what I understand in the ratings and.

29:44 >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And. And, you know, one last little bit of the score with the show and just, You know, with the ending credits with Jim Croce's Time in a Bottle, I mean, that was just. Again, just, I think put the, like, put the cherry on top of the. Of the, Of this episode. Because it was just such a great touch given all the things that happened in that episode. >> Sarah : So it is a great touch. However, all that song makes me think about, though, is the, Is ironically, in a weird way, the X Men sequence of, Quicksilver.

30:28 Because that's a song that's played. Am I not wrong about that? >> Will: Oh, gosh. >> Sarah : When we first meet Evan Peters, Quicksilver in that movie that. I'm blanking on which one of them it is. It's not the second one. They try to redo it and it's just. But it's. It's so. I don't think it's Apocalypse. I think it's the other one. It's all done to Time in a Bottle, and it's just brilliant. Huh? >> Will: is it Days of Future Past or I can't. >> Sarah : I think it might be. Yes, it's Days of Future Past because. Because then you're left after that sequence thinking to yourself, really? He couldn't they. Why couldn't they just have gone? Like he should have gone with that. So he had one sequence and then they tried to redo it in an apocalypse and it just like apocalypse just imploded on itself.

31:22 But anyways, so, But yeah, so if that for some reason and arguably maybe it's because the prior week Evan Peters appeared in the show. But yeah, anyways. But yeah, it was good. Not a little trippy for me. All right, that brings us to the Penguin, episode six, Gold Summit. Despite his enemies attempts to smoke him out. Aw. Seeks to expose. Expand his reach in the city. Meanwhile, Victor crosses paths with a former adversary.

32:02 I, need to talk about Sophia and Eve. >> Will: Okay. >> Sarah : So I just. Because I know earlier we talked about how Agatha along was between the two better. And it's not saying one is worse though. >> Will: No. >> Sarah : But the scene between Sophia and Eve Carlo. Because this episode Sophia and Sal are fed up with. With Oz. They want to find him, obviously for revenge. So a lot of their interactions is very like, okay, we.

32:43 And I'm not, I'm not even going to touch the sex scene. Not between them, but between the therapist and Sophia. I'm like. I'm like, no, no, no, no. Something's definitely to be discussed. So. But they're smoking and so of course I'll give it to the writers. Around the same time that Sophia has this idea and finds the panties. I'm like, well, she has met like Eve and the girls. So she, she, she through them finds. Finds Eve. And then there's this great scene. Like this scene I think is. Is one of my favorite scenes of the entire show because it's a rarity to see.

33:38 to have this kind of dialogue that is a chess match that is very much life and death and is between two women. Now I know, I know they're technically talking about a man, technically. But there are layers that they've been building with Eve Carlo's little like presence that has just been lurking in the background. And they've allowed this to happen. And so, so I love the fact that Eve clearly scared while simultaneously hats off to the actress. Simultaneously powerful in this and strong is. Invites Sophia in gun in hand. Clearly know like one of them, like Eve's gonna bite it. But they have the conversation and during the conversation, Eve, Eve makes it clear like I know who you Are.

34:46 You're the hangman. And then we get into this conversation about, well, Sophia's not the, hangman, and Oz knew about it. Now, I want to circle back onto that, but I don't want to lose track on this just because I know at the end of the day, Eve sold Oz out, but she did it in such a noble way. I can't be mad at her because. Because she took account everything that Sophia said in terms of her not being the hangman, Oz selling her out, and, causing her to become the hangman for public appearance sake. And.

35:35 And then the. The, quid pro quo, quid pro co of it all, where it's like, so you're gonna kill me? I mean, that's what you do. You're the hangman. Or. Or you're not anymore. I think she says, but that's not you. Right? And then it's at that moment that Sophie is like, damn, checkmate. Because if I shoot her, I am the killer. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : But if I don't, like, like, it was so good. And that's kind of why I think at the end. Although I don't know how much more remorse we're going to get from Sophia, but at the end, she's more observing rather than just going in there swinging, for the fences. But she. It's such a great scene, and I like how.

36:33 Okay, okay, Sophia. Sophia doesn't know she's getting out. It looks like he's gonna live. And then Eve just nonchalantly is like, here's where they are. Yeah, you didn't hear it from me. I do wonder if that's gonna turn around and bite her in the ass and Oz is going to find out, and ultimately he's going to kill her. but I just. It was beautifully written. It made perfect sense. Each character's question, response, and action. And I just. It stood out so much to me that I just wanted to start there.

37:16 but it does raise that question to me. From what we know, and especially talking about that fifth episode and Sophia's backstory of how she got thrown into Arkham. Will, do you think Oz really knew that it was Carmine behind the murders and that he would do that? Or did he just tip him off that your daughter's talking to reporters? >> Will: Yeah, you know, that's a great question. knowing Oz and knowing how he operates, I think he was governed for car.

38:01 >> Sarah : Okay, I do. >> Will: I do now. Now. I think I. I think, yeah. I think, yeah, that's how he operates. I mean, he. He sees that, he sees an opportunity and, you know, we. And at the end of the day, he is. You know, he's. He's a power clock. He's trying to climb that ladder. And he thought this was a way to, like, gain favor with Carmine to get to. To advance his. To advance himself. >> Sarah : Right, right. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. I don't. And maybe it's just because underneath all of that makeup is Colin Farrell delivering one hell of a performance. So he makes Oz look like a really good actor.

38:50 for some reason, I keep flashing back to him mourning Sophia, and then especially when they get pulled over in the car. He just seemed really confused to me. >> Will: I don't know why, but he does that. I mean. Yeah, I mean, I think that's just. I mean, even when Oz is telling the truth, that's the thing. This is like. He's like. When he told Sophia there in a parking lot, he was telling her the truth. I'm sorry I did this, you know, because he basically confessed to, like, not protecting her. >> Sarah : Right, right. Which would. But they're two different things. Like, that's not a confession that. Yeah, I knew your dad killed your. I knew your dad killed those women, and I threw you to him and said, hey, here's your scapegoat. Yeah, that.

39:40 That was more him saying. I told. him admitting. Here's my interpretation of it. Yeah, that was him more saying, yeah, I told your dad something like, remember, we technically have not Scene that conversation. >> Will: Right, Right. >> Sarah : So we don't really know for sure what he knew and what he told. All we knew was the consequence of it all. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : So. So I took it more as, like, yeah, I did something that ultimately led to you being thrown into Arkham instead of your dad. >> Will: Yeah. And, Yeah. And that's why. That's why I answered your question the way I did.

40:22 >> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Then we're on the same page, because I agree. I'm not here claiming he's innocent, and I don't know, but I. The. When. When, In taught in. In this scene between Eve and Sophia, Sophia makes it seem like he knew everything. But I'm thinking in my mind, I'm like, he was your driver, so how much did he know about everything that your dad was up to? So. And. And, we also don't know how long he has been her driver. So I. They're doing a good job about making.

41:06 Making me still see and understand two perspectives on this series of events. And, And the. The kind of. The. The lack of specific Specifics, caused me to be like, okay, well, neither are technically lying, but we also still don't know the full story. >> Will: Yep. >> Sarah : So I understand your different points. And. And still, despite everything else, I mean, Arkham or no Arkham, he killed her brother. So. That one. Yeah. Yeah.

41:46 and okay, there's another scene that I want to bring up. and get into more of Oz's storyline in this episode with his mom. Because the scene where Vic comes and is trying to talk to him about Squid. >> Will: Hm. >> Sarah : And his problem, he has. There's. This is a combination of Colin Farrell just nailing everything. And also the dialogue. The fact, like, just the Vic talking and then all of a sudden Oz, and he looks like he's going to respond and then he just goes into a very casual, very boyish, thought about him being unable to protect his mom because the doctors who have these diplomas and these machines don't know what she has. So how the fuck is he supposed to protect her from something no one knows what it is? Like, it's the imaginary friend.

43:00 >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : And he says it in such a beautiful way, such an endearing way and a hopelessness, yet that. But also just the way it was executed and written. I was just like, that's how you write dialogue. Like, there, there we. We get. We've seen so many shows with hunker down exposition and everything, but that came out of left field. While simultaneously. It wasn't because of previous scenes we've Scene between him and his mom in particular in this episode. It's just like. Yeah, that's what he's focused on. And I just. I loved that whole moment so much. I mean, give him the Emmy.

43:54 >> Will: Yes. >> Sarah : Sorry, Pedro. Pedro's gonna be supporting. I know, I know. >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, put me in the supporting category because Colin's going to win this year. yeah, I completely agree. I mean, that scene, with. With. Yeah, that's. But, you know, I think it. It really just showed that for me, like, Oz, that's probably the one that's the one level of, I guess, humanity or whatever you want to call it that he has is through his mother and. And maybe to some degree with Vic. >> Sarah : Yes. >> Will: as things. Because, you know, as the episode. You know, whenever an episode first starts, you know, we get.

44:38 It's a little, you know, it's a little bit of a time jump. I think it's about a week or so since they found the tunnels and they, you know, things are fully, fully humming and then, you know, and again, there's that moment between Oz and Vic and you know, talking about they're going to remember our names and the whole, you know, Oz was he, you know, we had another Rex Keller Breasy moment, there at the beginning. And you know, Oz is feeling, he's feeling like I'm, I'm doing something here. And he's feeling very proud and he's, you know, Oz and Vic are going to be the Legends of Gotham for what they would, you know, like, like, you know, Oz is how Ozzy's Rex. Now Oz is going to be in that, you know, he's gonna be held in that same pedestal in the, in the, in the, in in Gotham because of all the biddy's doing for the people in Crown Point. So you know, so that was really that, that moment like you, that you shared, where I think those are some of the moments of vulnerability that this character shows with his ma and with Vic that, you know, other people just don't get to see.

45:41 >> Sarah : Yeah, it's interesting that the gangster he keeps referencing as Rex and we learn that his dead brothers are both named Jack and Rex. >> Will: No, no, his other, his brother's Jack and Benny. >> Sarah : Rex is Jack and Benny. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : So who's the dad? Because I almost feel like there was a name drop of the dad and I'm trying to look at my notes. >> Will: yeah, there's still the dad's. The dads are named still. >> Sarah : Okay. >> Will: Yeah, that's the one name. Yeah. >> Sarah : Okay. Okay. Well. Well, I have to rewatch. >> Will: Yeah, so we, but we did. Yeah, though we, you know, we, we theorized that Rex could be Oz's unnamed father.

46:27 >> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah. I could have sworn she said, she said Rex at one point. She did. Not him. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : because there were moments because this episode, now it could be. >> Will: Yeah, yeah. East side thing, you know, because you know that they are, you know, they, they are people from the east side and Rex was the, you know, the. Maybe there's a connection there with the, with the brothers Laws's brothers being killed with Rex. >> Sarah : Maybe. >> Will: Yeah, maybe that's >> Sarah : Maybe potentially. but yeah, we, we have a great breakfast moment between our cold ass family who are just freezing. but they're able to scramble up some, some eggs and, and Oz's mom is kind of taken out of it and, and Vic tries to help and I'm like, keep going Vic. We're gonna get some answers about this family. But Oz shuts it down. and then later we have Another, the actress who plays, is Oz's mom named Luis Francis or Francis.

47:47 The actress who plays Francis. It's just continues to deliver and, like, a great performance, for many of the things that were mentioned last week. But also this scene in the tub. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : And the. Again, there's something so hopeless about all of these moments with Oz and his mom in this episode. And even to some, extent, vicious and just the situation. And I think they did that very well because, we have to root for them to get the power back on by any means necessary. We have to root for them for doing these things because we want them to have hope and not be so hopeless. And, there was a line because she tells them, if my body. If my mind goes before my body, take me out. And I love his response. You're not a dog. You're my mom.

48:59 >> Will: Mom. Yeah. >> Sarah : It's just so. Again, I like how the. The dialogue is written in such a natural way while at the same time using great metaphors. And. But it's just like, yeah, that. That would be his response because, like, she. She's all he has left and has. And it's almost. We. We talk about how Oz is constantly wanting to prove himself and, wants the power. Like, he's power hungry. He's got. He's got little man disabled. Like, he's got. Like, I need to prove that I'm better.

49:46 If not, I can eat at the same table as you all. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : I'm just a poor kid, but I want you to see me as a rich man. And. And yet in this situation with his mom, it's not about that. It's just about, like, protected this person who protected him to some extent. And. And it's the hopelessness because she's fading and he can't do anything about it. >> Will: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, yeah. And then, you know, he, Yeah. And then he just uses. And because of that feelings of hopelessness, he's like, okay, how can I turn this into an opportunity?

50:31 And then he, you know, with his mom. >> Sarah : Not with his mom. >> Will: No, not with his mom, but at least as far as the opportunity to, like, what can he, you know, whenever he, like, did confront the city councilman, because I think it goes back to the, you know, beginning of the episode where he talks about, you know, where, like, the, you know, whenever he's trying to get the general, you know, the electricity siphoned off for you for the tunnels. You know, at first it was like the motivation was to. So he can make us make the bliss. but then, but then, but then once they couldn't get the generator to work in the apartment, to your point about breakfast and, you know, and, and then, and because of the hopelessness that he feels for his ma, yeah, then he was like, okay, I going to figure out a way, you know, the, the motivation shifted from just, just from the bliss to now getting, you know, getting that. Getting warmth back into the city and Crown Point, and. And leveraging the city.

51:32 Yep. >> Sarah : Yeah. And being. Being a, Robin Hood, which, Which I think is it. Like this episode really showcases what a great foil to Bruce Wayne he is. Because Bruce Wayne is the rich guy. >> Will: Yeah. Yep. >> Sarah : He's the rich guy who. Who like, drowns in sorrow because of the death of his parents and all that. We know. We know who Bruce Wayne is. But now we have Oz, who he's just this poor kid. And I'm glad you brought up Bliss at the beginning, just because I didn't think about it until now about how that drug dealing, underground part was so underplayed in this episode, if you really think about it, that a lot of the longer sequences, a lot of the longer shots were all occurring in this, apartment building that was. That's in Crown's Point that we, we know from Vic's episode earlier, like, had. There was so much life there.

52:46 But now after the events of, the Riddler has. Has become a place of squalor. And like, now we're finding out more about how the city is just turning a blind eye to it because the poor people live there. And it's just. It allows. It fuels the speech at the end of the episode at Gold Summit, which turns out to just be Oz pitching himself to all of the gangsters and really saying, if we all come together, we can run Sal and Sophia out of town. He's not technically lying. and who are the rich gangsters? It's interesting how they did a good job about making sure it's clear. Even in this underground, sector of Gotham, there's a hierarchy and there's classes, there's a class system.

53:57 And so there's this, like. I know at the beginning we kept talking about power vacuum, but it's not even a power vacuum. It's just more like, okay, well, do we really need these two, like, controlling majority? Or can the minority, if they come together, become the majority? >> Will: So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. It is a very class, almost caste system as far as, you know, with the, with the, you know, even I, you know, I didn't think about that until you, like, drew the parallels between the two. you know, the underworld has this system of classism as well as the, you know, just the normal rich, you know, corrupt politicians and other rich people, Bruce Wayne, that we see in Gotham. it's just so many, so many parallels, and I think that just makes for a very compelling story, and why this show is just working so well, you know, and as we, as we talk about this episode, too, you know, one of the things, you know, we mentioned, you mentioned the word family when you were talking about Sal and Sophia, and really it was just, you know, I guess the Found Family is that recurring theme that has sort of been interspersed throughout the series, but it really was on display here. As far as the storytelling, you know, the story beats that we're focused on. You know, we have Oz, the found family of Oz, Vic and Oz's mother. We have

55:29 the, you know, Oz and the other Crown families, you know, to like, consolidate their power to overtake Sophia and Sal. you know, Eve and her girls. I mean, that was, you know, that was. That found family. Cause, you know, that was. I think that's what made that opening scene, that scene that you open up with so powerful, is because, you know, Eve, you know, she. She, you know, she knew about the hangman. She actually told one of her girls to, like, draw her up, you know, let her, you know, whenever she's going to be asking about, around on the street, you know. >> Sarah : Yeah. >> Will: Tell her, Tell her to come up. Because she, again, Eve wanted to protect her girls. Yeah. Because, you know, they had that encounter at the club that night. And, and it also was sort of, you know, fulfilling. You know, Eve, from the very beginning was, like, worried that, you know, it's going to lead back. Al's actions are going to lead back to her.

56:17 Yeah. So she's been planning for this and. Oh, yeah. >> Sarah : Oh, she's. She. She cut ties. That's part of the reason why she didn't go to Crown's Point with us, because she didn't. She didn't want anything to do with it or the Hangman. I think it's also worth pointing out, with how, how you brought up, the continued stories of Rex Calabarry that we're hearing, during Gold Summit. Another reason why it's so evident these people would suddenly start to listen to Oz is because he played that card of, I know who y'all are. I know your family. He has that, line about Benny.

57:00 >> Will: Yep. >> Sarah : Or like, like your, your, your father built that bridge and all this stuff. Her names. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : Like. And it's something. It's something out of. Out of. I don't know. I keep thinking. I keep thinking about a movie. The Newsies. Okay. Okay. Classic. Classic. Classic. Okay. Kristian Bale in his prime. No, Kristian Bale in his prime was Batman, but still. Okay, if you ever want to watch Batman carry a tune, go check out the Newsies. Okay. I wonder if it's on Disney. My brother was obsessed with that. We watched it like at least once a year during my childhood, so.

57:48 >> Will: That's awesome. >> Sarah : Yeah, yeah, I'm very familiar with it. But I keep thinking about that whole thing because it was about the newsboys banding together to overthrow the newspaper company and publishing all that stuff. And it just. This whole gold summit turns into a scene that feels like it's out of the newsies where it's like, we can't let them get away with this. We got to come together and rise up because. Because we're the working men. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : And it's. I mean, it's a stretch because arguably all of like the people he's talking to are primarily the bosses of the working men, but still he, he, he uses that card, to unionize. And, and I think that's. That it's a showcase of, of again. What this series is set up to do is how Penguin comes into power the way he does.

58:50 >> Will: Yeah. Yeah, it's totally. Yeah. That. Yeah. I mean, like you said, the setting up that foil, with, with like again the class system and. Yeah, because. Yeah, I mean, it was the. He, he hit all the right buttons. You know, it's like, you know, talking about Donnie. Yeah. Hey, Donny boy in the bridge. And, and even, even at the end, you know, when Zhao, like finally, you know, you know, challenges about the code and he's like, yeah, you know, I do have, you know, you know, he just throws everything back. I mean, he had, you know, he, he. It was, that was a very solid moment too. And it's believed, you know, and all the things that they've led up to this moment, it shows why it's believable that he does become the, you know, gentleman criminal lead of Gotham.

59:40 >> Sarah : Yeah, the, the other big thing that happens in this episode is, Vic kills Squidward. >> Will: Yeah. Yeah. That was the one place where I was kind of like, okay, I saw where it was. You know, we saw it coming. So I was kind of a little underwhelmed by the it. But also But I think the reaction of Vic, with. With Oz, and then I think what. What. What's. What helped make it more salient for me was when Vic was sitting there in the. In the apartment, and he saw the blood stain on the shoe and he was, like, rubbing it off, because I think that was where it was just like, you know, the circle is. He has completely fallen from the kid that, you know, had a choice multiple times to, like, get out of this world, but he has decided to go this route, and he's. He's fully committed to it now.

1:00:37 >> Sarah : Well, he kind of does it accidentally in a weird way. >> Will: Yeah, yeah. >> Sarah : And he tried to talk to Oz about it, but. Wrong time. Wrong time to bring that up. And then he ends up having to, like, he. I don't. A fall from grace is hard. He. He's. He definitely. It's like, okay, well, where are you gonna go from here? Like, we'll see next week if that haunts him. But. But now we don't know. He's going to be in a hostage situation with Sophia. And if Sophia finds out that he, kind of helped Oz bury her brother in a weird way.

1:01:20 So I don't know how much is coming out of that. I honestly, I like how there's. I don't know, there's a bit of doubt now in my mind if. If Vic will make it past this season. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : Yeah, I think it's more likely that we'll say goodbye to Francis by. By the end of this. and not both. I don't think it's going to be both, but I agree. but I do appreciate the little bit of doubt now where I'm like, I don't know, it could go either way. 50. 50. >> Sarah : But I. So.

1:02:00 So I did like that moment with the blood on the shoes, too. I thought it was just enough. Although by that point in the episode, what kind of killed me is like, oh, okay, you're gonna let him go home, and that's when Sophia's gonna walk in. Got it. Got it. So he's at home while you're doing this, and you've left the two people who you arguably, care about the most in the same location. That just so happens. So. God. So I saw that whole thing. I still really appreciated the lights coming on, the music start playing, and then the dance dancing. Because, again, it's just like, Oz isn't there.

1:02:44 But by the point. That point in this episode, it's just like you, like, with everything coming back on there's life, there's energy and there's hope. >> Will: Yep. >> Sarah : so just. So, yeah, it's. >> Will: Yeah, yeah. Just when you have hope and then you see. So Sophia, like, you know, slinking up in there and it's, you know, with the, you know, whenever you hear. And the thing is too, like, Vic actually heard, you know, her, like, break, you know, breaking into the place and, you know, because he gets up and. But then, you know, the music, the power comes on. The music is really loud and. And you know, so. Yeah, you're right. I mean, it's just like everything, just the convergence of things happening.

1:03:32 Yeah, you framed it perfectly. It's like you do have hope and then all of a sudden, cliffhanger. >> Sarah : Yeah. Yeah. You're. You're still like, this is a TV show that has a few more episodes to go, but you're still like, oh, well, I. I wish she was a little bit more sinister looking because she, she honestly just looked like. I don't even know how to describe it. She just, she had this state of like, oh, I'm. I'm a peeping Tom right now. And just watching. >> Will: Well, well, you know, it goes back to like, you know, whenever they broke into. And style. Broke into his apartment, all this time she thought that his family. He had no family. So now, you know, it was almost like it was stunt. She was, maybe stunned that.

1:04:22 >> Sarah : Yes, that. That's a fair point. That's a fair point that I, I didn't forget. But yes, she was under the impression the mom was dead. She didn't know anything about the dad. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : so which we're under the impression that almost the dad's pretty much dead and, and the mom's all he has. But we also. Yeah, so they kind of did a reverse of perspective between the viewers and Sophia. But, but yeah, that's, that's fair. That she would be like, wait a second, why is an old lady here dancing with. And, and. And she knows Vic. She's met him. So I'm sure, I'm sure she's placed his face. But I don't know. They. They had such brief interactions that I don't know by how much.

1:05:11 she. She puts two, two and two together. >> Will: Yeah. >> Sarah : but. Well, that, that sets us up for next week where we will continue on both of these journeys. And on, that note, Will, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you? >> Will: Yes, you can find me on X. Formerly known as. Formerly known as Twitter at W I L L M P O P O L K will impol and you can. >> Sarah : Find me there too at SJ Belmont sjb L. Follow our crew there at Scene and Nerd. Friend us on Facebook, follow us on Instagram and threads at Scene, underscore n, underscore Nerd and Visit our website www.uhscenerdpodcast.com.

1:05:52 but most importantly, rate, follow and comment on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get podcasts. Goodnight. Geek out. You're welcome.